Administrators Dazz Posted May 22, 2013 Administrators Share Posted May 22, 2013 Faralos - Are you talking about that 3 year rule that VPF states that's in place? Personally, I don't think there ever was an agreement and was something made up by VPF to save face. The software is all open source and the roms are freely available for download. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider oooPLAYER1ooo Posted May 22, 2013 Content Provider Share Posted May 22, 2013 I thought it was still illegal for us to possess the sam thingie I refuse to use it for that very reason if that ruling still holds but I guess some of you don't really care one way or the other emulation isnt illegal at all in any form as long as you dont obtain any of sterns software, since they host it freely online you are obtaining it legally, there is no roms hosted here. the only thing stern can get us on is reproducing tables in there likeness and there isnt any here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider DeeGor Posted May 23, 2013 Content Provider Share Posted May 23, 2013 I thought it was still illegal for us to possess the sam thingie I refuse to use it for that very reason if that ruling still holds but I guess some of you don't really care one way or the other Just about every post I've read from you on this forum is very negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowter Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 @Faralos: Legality issues aside (as it is just as legal or illegal for you to have a copy of the rom for Attack From Mars, as it is for you to have a copy of the rom for any SAM game): This forum complies fully with the supposed agreement, there are NO table recreations for recent tables to be found here, nor will there ever be. I see snotz is even upping the ante from 3 to 5 years out of production (official site rules name 3 years, as per the supposed agreement though). SAM emulation does give us the possibility to recreate tables like world poker tour (2006), you tell me: is this somehow different than recreating NASCAR (2005), which is downloadable from VPF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider Itchigo Posted May 23, 2013 Content Provider Share Posted May 23, 2013 The thing that hits me is: If Stern is concerned about this or other related stuff, why have the roms for download at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowter Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 The thing that hits me is: If Stern is concerned about this or other related stuff, why have the roms for download at all? Probably because they do not expect people to be able to do more with the files than update their pinball machines...... But you have a point, i just checked the stern site, and there are no legal disclaimers/texts or anything to be found either on the site itself, or included with the downloaded files. No terms of usage or anything. I am no expert, but this gives us some leeway towards working with these files. They obviously are acting in good faith (or just forgot about this, as the download section looks like it has not been overhauled since 1998). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider Rascal Posted May 23, 2013 Content Provider Share Posted May 23, 2013 These emulations are in no way as good as having the real table, and I think Gary Stern knows that. He's even said that the emulations will never take the place of the real thing and that the ball is wild. No mater how good of a job in making a virtual version, it can't compare to the real thing. Personally, this crap we do here sells tables, its like taking a virtual tour of a pinball table before you buy. Ask anybody that owns a real pinball machine, virtual is fun, but it is not like the real thing. I played the virtual table of Dr. Dude before I even thought about going out and buying it. So I'm proof that virtual pinball sells real tables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider Itchigo Posted May 23, 2013 Content Provider Share Posted May 23, 2013 To be honest, I don't even know how the home user would go about updating their machines with this, and I used to be an operator. But I'm not tech savvy either...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ton Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Without reading a manual I think it's not that hard. Download the rom, put in on a usb stick, stick it into the motherboard, flip a dipswitch and perhaps restart the pinball machine to load the rom. It's not rocket science. duh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider Itchigo Posted May 23, 2013 Content Provider Share Posted May 23, 2013 It's not something I ever had to do. I always outsourced my boardwork. I didn't see how to get it into the board on the older games. The newer games I can see having usb, but not the old ones. I left the business in about 89 or so. I haven't been back since, but my dad still operates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ton Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 But this discussion is about the new games and not the old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider Itchigo Posted May 24, 2013 Content Provider Share Posted May 24, 2013 I was just responding to the roms discussion. I'm not really qualified to comment on anything new. When I left in about 89-90 I dropped off the radar as far as the business is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTPPC Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 I don't know where you all get your information. I'm not calling anyone liars, but I spoke with Stern's sales and marketing director at CES in January and he said they like emulation. They do not see it as competitive and think it is just a gateway to the desire for real machine play. From an IP perspective, all emulation is wrong. From my perspective, all emulation is right and fair game. I don't think there is a single reason to have some mythical agreement with anyone. In fact, I think the entire MAME/PinMAME philosophy regarding IP is a total pile of BS. Please don't hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider arngrim Posted May 25, 2013 Content Provider Share Posted May 25, 2013 What is IP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DStruct Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 IP = Intellectual Property Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Wildman Posted May 25, 2013 Administrators Share Posted May 25, 2013 I don't know where you all get your information. I'm not calling anyone liars, but I spoke with Stern's sales and marketing director at CES in January and he said they like emulation. They do not see it as competitive and think it is just a gateway to the desire for real machine play. From an IP perspective, all emulation is wrong. From my perspective, all emulation is right and fair game. I don't think there is a single reason to have some mythical agreement with anyone. In fact, I think the entire MAME/PinMAME philosophy regarding IP is a total pile of BS. Please don't hate. I Totally agree I think its a bunch of made up BS too.. when I wanted to buy a pin first thing I did was play it on vp to see if i even like it and not driving a hour or 2 to find out it sucked LOL.. I dont see nothing wrong with emulating the new sterns or others..waiting for out of production or some made up 3 yr rule is BS. If stern was so worried about it they wouldnt be putting all the roms and info out for public use..All I see is more sales for them if people really like the gameplay....I say make them and post them if it stern has a problem with it (which I doubt ) Im sure they will let us know Or sombody just called them and find out the Real deal and end this stupid debate once and for all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowter Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 .All I see is more sales for them if people really like the gameplay... And what if they don't? and you've got a warehouse full of mediocre pins to sell? (i say this jokingly, but this may be the reason for the supposed agreement, a badly made recreation could hurt sales, and they have no control over the quality of community recreations) (They dont care about older pins having a good or bad recreation, because they don't make money on second hand sales......) another exampe: Would anyone have bought a NEW striker Xtreme (or insert other bland pinball machines name here), if they had the chance to play it beforehand? In this case even an awesome recreation would have exposed the bland gameplay, and preorders could have been canceled....? But you're obviously right, exposure to table recreations/emulation cultivate a demand for the real thing. In the end Stern benefits from more people loving pinball. Again, just to be clear: recreating PInball machines still in production and/or available from major distributors could conceivably hurt Stern Pinballs bottom line. If they decide this is too great a risk to have, and that this risk outweighs the benefits fan recreations have (popularizing pinball), then the simplest solution would be to have their legal team draft up a broadly worded c&d letter, which would effectively end VPU, VPF, and other virtual pinball websites....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snotz Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 The bottom line is that Virtual Pinball EMULATES... and the physics engines dont compare to a real pinball machine, no matter what. A mediocre pinball machine is still better than a perfect recreation of a good machine, simply because of the physics and mechanics. Virtual cant compare to the real feel and action of a flipper hitting a silver ball around and the machine which in turn gives feedback by hitting a bumper or destroying a castle, no matter how hard you try to emulate it. What emulation does do is open the door to more pinball lovers. It gives the opportunity for someone, like my 1 year old son, to experience something (when he gets a little older), that I loved without having to travel 3-4hrs just for him to get the chance to play just 1 or 2 tables (most kids dont have the attention span and would get bored with just playing 1 table over and over). Also, if my son gets addicted to virtual pinball, dont you think that my son would tell his friends about it? And that opens the door of him or his friends buying a real pinball table (when they can afford one). All virtualization does is open the door to those that would have never experienced it in the first place, which in turn, creates more of a demand. As long as the community sticks to the 3/5 year rule, people already know those tables, and would buy the real thing regardless, if they wanted, therefore not hurting sales, because those 3/5 year machines would no longer be in production. If you have a warehouse full of pins to sell, wouldnt someone want to play test a pin first before they decide to buy it (unless its a new pin)? Basically this "fake" agreement was made for other reasons, because its obvious that Stern isnt bothered by emulation, as far as we all know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowter Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 ....... If you have a warehouse full of pins to sell, wouldnt someone want to play test a pin first before they decide to buy it (unless its a new pin)? Basically this "fake" agreement was made for other reasons, because its obvious that Stern isnt bothered by emulation, as far as we all know. The way i read it, Wildman was advocating emulating and recreating NEW stern tables, still in production. I was making the argument that that is not a good idea, because if Stern had a warehouse full of NEW pinball machines, their sales could conceivably be affected by a (bad) recreation of that particular machine. Not being able to play the real thing (because the table only available as a preorder), people could base their opinion of the title on the recreation. Sometimes it is just the little things that you can find out through emulation. For example: I would not want a Big Bang Bar in my house. I have not ever seen the real thing, but through emulation i now know that the machine' software has a constant, annoying moaning sound goin off (girl going ooooooh......aaaaaaahhh). This moaning annoys me so much that i rarely play the recreation, and it has shaped my feelings about the real deal. any ideas what the 'other' reasons were? I love a good story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider arngrim Posted May 29, 2013 Content Provider Share Posted May 29, 2013 Widman recreates new stern tables? I haven't seen a work from him that couldn't potentially be published on vpf I didn't dare to ask about the other reasons, but i'm interested to understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrout Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 I figure, if it's out of production, it's fair game. Period. They've already made their money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Wildman Posted May 29, 2013 Administrators Share Posted May 29, 2013 I figure, if it's out of production, it's fair game. Period. They've already made their money. Thats what I meant as new just worded it wrong in last post.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snotz Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Another update: - Added Metallica 1.12 Pro - Updated to 3477 SVN VPinMAME25svn.zip VPinMAME25_pindmd1.zip VPinMAME25_pindmd2.zip sam.zip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider bent98 Posted June 9, 2013 Content Provider Share Posted June 9, 2013 Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvthatapex Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Thank you! This is awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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