End of an Era

[Ashram56]

2 hours ago, usul27 said:

It's not about a license somewhere in the past, but the current license of the code that's being used. Licenses can change and they often do. As long all authors are fine with this, there is no problem at all. You have seen open source software becoming closed source in later versions (any idea about a project like this?). That's perfectly fine as long as everybody who contributed to it is fine with it. 

An example: If I publish code today under a BSD-license you can do with it whatever you want (you can even use it in closed-source projects). If I decide tomorrow to limit the use of the code only allow women from Chile who are over 90 years old to use it, you are most likely not allowed to use this anymore. However you still can use the initial code that was under BSD license. I can try to get the old code off the internet (and we have also seen this in some projects that have been open source before)., but if you still have a copy on your computer, you can still use this legally. 

 

Well let me correct my question: when I state "original", I mean "current" licence (this was lost in translation) of DMDDevice.dll. I'm guessing that it's part of DMDExt, therefore it's under GPL ?

 

The original DMDDevice.dll implementation was actually lucky1, under BSD licence.

[usul27]

Yes, license is GPL 2:
https://github.com/freezy/dmd-extensions

According to Github this hasn't changed in the last 6 years:
https://github.com/freezy/dmd-extensions/commits/master/LICENSE

[legolas24]

I'm sorry to read all this, what is clear is that the one that will lose is the community. I hope it's not too late for an understanding. If after going through a pandemic we do not understand that the disputes over these things are not that important, it is that we have not learned anything.

[goredaimon]

On 5/21/2022 at 11:46 PM, Wylte said:

Trying to figure out what you're saying, as it's a little lost in translation.  Are you saying that everyone should pay for colorizations?  Because if that's it...no.  The best things in vpin are open source and shared freely.  Passion projects are better off being driven by passion.  In my opinion, more things in real pinball being freely shared would be healthy for the hobby.  Money always complicates things, encourages focus testing (stifling creativity) and reducing competition.  And leads to situations like this.

I want to know why real pinball owners need to pay for colorization, as all of them are free for virtual pinball? That´s it.

[Wylte]

34 minutes ago, goredaimon said:

I want to know why real pinball owners need to pay for colorization, as all of them are free for virtual pinball? That´s it.

They shouldn't need to 👍

[Rappelbox]

Let me summarize my very personal standpoint.

 

I have absolutely no clue about the different licenses and their interpretation.

I'm really unhappy that the authors have to justify why they charge a little donation (20-40??? $). I don't get it!

You go to work, you want to get paid for it.

You want to drink a coffee at a café or a stale beer, you have to pay for it.

You want a VPin and pay often really big cash for it.

I made a poll about how much people spend on it at Visual Pinball Addicts on FB, guess that 50% of all participants have spent between 2-7k(!!!) EUR/USD

You want to drive a car, you have to pay for it (except you stole it)

 

So why the hell should anyone be forced to give away their work for free?

The ones of you that are a bit longer in this hobby may remember of the Flintstones VPX project?

Actually it was not for free, you had to donate to support buying plastics, buy render time, and most important, get early access!

 

VPin community is spoiled by awesome table creators and teams that invest gigantic amounts of resources, time and brain power into their, your and my hobby and give it all away for free!

You are simply not allowed to INSIST on "everything for free".

 

If the authors asked me to pay for their pac or vni files, i'd of course pay for them!

No one forces anyone to do the same. You just would have to stick to another system if there was one.

 

Some authors do their colorizations because of the fun, actually all of them do since it's a sh*tload of work!

Some authors share their complete projects for free, which is imo a really honorable move.

It's their decision, not yours or mine!

Why is this now important?

Now what if those authors didn't really care about what is happening with their files? So be it, their decision. point. period.

 

All those colorizations have been made with pin2dmd editor, some even with pin2dmd hardware to get better understanding how colors look like and all that other stuff.

The decision was made because it is the only available editor!

By using that editor you consent to that rule. This rule may change over time, or may not.

The guy who wrote the editor also made the rule. As the name already implies, it is a pin2dmd editor! So you consent to developing for pin2dmd hardware or virtual pinball export.

Now even with the new pac format these rules still have not changed! IT STILL IS a pin2dmd editor and export for real and virtual pinball is still possible.

Virtual pinball export only for lcd and a few other hardware devices, btw a very generous move to accept competitors!

 

Let's shift a little from the creative to the hardware part...

 

Because some guys think it would be a "cool" idea to use the vni files in real pinball machines. He would share the software for free.

But in the same post, this same guy tells everybody he is making his income on hardware development.

Would that hardware be for free? Of course, not! You'd still have to pay for a Raspberry Pi or other sort of controller,  a new monitor, RGB panels, whatever, you get the point.

So the change is the recipient of your money, bypassing hardware donations AND bypassing authors donations.

If the authors don't mind, that also fine if you asked them BEFORE you developed that stuff.

Another guy thinks it's a cool idea to develop a hardware device "to make a cheap" pin2dmd sort of device for VPins.

Hell yeah, sh*t on those activation fees, make everything as cheap as possible for us! Don't get me wrong, I respect the development of every new device and the brains that go into it's development.

It is just the intention that bothers me. It was solely developed to bypass activations, even publicly communicated by that developer!

 

It's a direct slap in the face of every author that asks for really little cash, compared to a complete (virtual) pinball machine and the time they spent!

They asked for a donation for real pin files, it's their right to ask for compensation of their work! The "clever" guys want to bypass that.

It's a direct slap in the face of the pin2dmd developers, having invested thousands of hours of development, be it hard- or software, bug tracking, research etc.

but most important,

It's a giantic slap in the face of all the charity organizations that were beneficiaries to all the hardware activations.

There have already been some guys in this forum and also at pinside, flippermarkt or vpf who heavily burnt their mouth because they embarrassingly accused the developers to keep the donation money!

I know that for sure because i directly donate to those organizations.

And I take those donations for what they are: respect for the development and an "ok" way to give something back.

Who are the beneficiaries? sick children, their families.

 

Please take a second a google for SOH Kenya, Kinderkrebshilfe Karlsruhe, Des Lumières Dans Les Yeux

How dare you to bypass those for "rich peoples toys"!?

 

And if there wasn't a donation? I'd personally still pay for the development if the authors asked me to do so.

You want to ride the horse you have to pay its hay, so to speak.

Same with Pinball FX3 from Zen Studios, Zaccharia Pinball, Windows 10, you get the point again, hopefully.

 

Afaik, the pac format prevents bypassing real pin2dmd hardware for real pins and usage of new 3rd party devices for virtual Pins.

A totally legit move, imo. lucky1 developed the hardware so he's blocking those new free riders.

Aint that legit?

 

Just my personal opinion and not related to "behind the scenes" stuff that might be going on and I don't really know about.

 

Dom

 

Some points might sound harsh or offending, i apologize for that. It is because i'm an emotional human and english is not my native language

If it would be possible i would have blocked my signature for this post

[tabascoman77]

1 hour ago, Rappelbox said:

So why the hell should anyone be forced to give away their work for free?

 

It isn't "his work". He's in violation of the license in question. Firstly, and secondly, he's making money off of somebody else. I don't care what "charity" he's "donating" the funds to.

 

Quote

I have absolutely no clue about the different licenses and their interpretation.

 

This line completely invalidates everything you posted after it.

[LynnInDenver]

1 hour ago, Rappelbox said:

Afaik, the pac format prevents bypassing real pin2dmd hardware for real pins and usage of new 3rd party devices for virtual Pins.

A totally legit move, imo. lucky1 developed the hardware so he's blocking those new free riders.

Aint that legit?

 

The only legitimacy involved is preventing people from using other hardware. On that score, it's perfectly fine and legal because of the way the software is set up, since it uses Lucky1's software exclusively.

 

However, my understanding is that he packages the Freezy DLL with his software for those of us using virtual solutions (read: standard computer LCD monitors), which is actually in violation of the specific license (GPL) of the Freezy DLL itself. This explosion would NOT have occurred if Lucky1 had developed and provided his own display DLL instead for the release. The only "built in" exception I've found to the "interacting with GPL licensed DLLs for features" is with system software where rolling one's own solution isn't actually possible, and doesn't apply here as Lucky1 says he contributed code for the ability to use an external DMD DLL to the vPinMAME software itself, so he should have all the documentation needed to have rolled his own solution.

 

There have been claims made that Freezy was slow to implement improvements, features and bug fixes in the 64 color upgrade. There have also been claims made that there are intractable bugs related to the PAL/VNI format that prevent it working as well as Lucky1 would like. This does not justify a license violation to bring those improvements, features and bug fixes to anyone using a virtual solution over a Pin2DMD.

 

This has been made far, far worse by Lucky1 encouraging colorization authors to move to the new PAC format for various reasons, like the bug fixes and features, and the odd one I've heard that "this will protect VPUniverse from some sort of threat" that still hasn't been enumerated to the bulk of us what this specific threat is, and how this new format is supposed to nullify that threat, and has actually resulted in authors updating to only provide files that require Lucky1's license violating software release exclusively, and has already forced some of us to make unpleasant decisions regarding our vpin setups going forward.

[lucky1]

1 hour ago, tabascoman77 said:

It isn't "his work"

 

The coloring code in freezy is based on the code snippets of the original code I sent to freezy every time I updated it. The latest changes to update to 64 colors was done by me together with funkyman . So in fact the complete logic behind it and some of the code IS my work.

 

1 hour ago, tabascoman77 said:

He's in violation of the license in question.

In the meantime asking 5 people about it, I have 5 different opinions which in the end means we have to go to court to know it. The point of Freezy btw is that if both DLLs are distributed together it is a license violation,

if distributed seperately it is not. So it is not wether or how I use the code, which is o.k., it is about that I pack it into one zip file for the convenience of the community. 

 

1 hour ago, tabascoman77 said:

Firstly, and secondly, he's making money off of somebody else.

 

I don´t make any money with freezy or any vpin colorization. The money everbody talks about is the activation donation which goes to charity for the pin2dmd hardware, which is not needed for freezy.

 

1 hour ago, tabascoman77 said:

I don't care what "charity" he's "donating" the funds to.

I do because I believe that otherwise some people would never do anything for a good cause.

[tabascoman77]

14 minutes ago, lucky1 said:

 

The coloring code in freezy is based on the code snippets of the original code I sent to freezy every time I updated it. The latest changes to update to 64 colors was done by me together with funkyman . So in fact the complete logic behind it and some of the code IS my work.

 

Sooo...in other words, you're using his work. Thanks for confirming that.

 

14 minutes ago, lucky1 said:

 

In the meantime asking 5 people about it, I have 5 different opinions which in the end means we have to go to court to know it. The point of Freezy btw is that if both DLLs are distributed together it is a license violation,

if distributed seperately it is not. So it is not wether or how I use the code, which is o.k., it is about that I pack it into one zip file for the convenience of the community. 

 

There aren't "5 different opinions". You've been accused of theft on three different sites by at least a dozen people, if not more. Cut the bullshit. You are using his DLL. Thanks for confirming that.

 

14 minutes ago, lucky1 said:

 

I don´t make any money with freezy or any vpin colorization. The money everbody talks about is the activation donation for the pin2dmd hardware, which is not needed for freezy.

 

I do because I believe that otherwise some people would never do anything for a good cause.

 

Whether you call it a "donation" or "making money", you're still earning money from this. So, you're making money off his code and tossing it at a "charity". Thanks for confirming that.

Jesus, dude...you're so full of shit, it's coming out your ears.

[Rappelbox]

Interestingly you ignore all other aspects i mentioned and solely focus on that possible, yet not confirmed or denied, license violation.

 

these dlls have absolutely nothing to do with hardware and activation of it, you're impudently mix it and interpret it to your favor.

 

calling people "full of shit" loses every respect for you and your arguments.

 

[tabascoman77]

7 minutes ago, Rappelbox said:

Interestingly you ignore all other aspects i mentioned and solely focus on that possible, yet not confirmed or denied, license violation.

 

It is confirmed. You realize you can read the License yourself, right? And I ignored everything else you said because you willfully admitted you knew nothing about the licensing, which automatically renders anything else you say moot.

 

7 minutes ago, Rappelbox said:

these dlls have absolutely nothing to do with hardware and activation of it, you're impudently mix it and interpret it to your favor.

 

The DLL is Freezy and is packaged, without the author's permission, with this bundle.

 

7 minutes ago, Rappelbox said:

calling people "full of shit" loses every respect for you and your arguments.

 

 

Not when it's true. But, go off, Mr. "I Don't Know About Licenses or Their Interpretation".

[Ashram56]

I'm going to get flamed for this, I know it, but...

 

For the record , I do NOT agree with Lucky1 on some of his choices, and I do NOT agree with him on his stand with regards to ZeDMD , but I understand his perception, and most importantly, I recognize the amount of work he's invested into the hobby, and I stay civil in my exchanges.

 

But it is clear that the most vocal on this thread against these very choices are all about "you don't respect the GPL licence". You obviously do not care about the position of the colorization authors who contribute to the hobby (except freezy who did ask at the very beginning of this thread), you only care about the fact that Lucky1 does not comply with the licence.

 

Which is, honestly, the biggest joke of all time, because... the ENTIRE HOBBY IS BUILT ON COPYRIGHT. You're all treading on a very thin ground on this aspect (ROM, artwork, PuP packs, sound remix, etc), yet you scream at the top of your lungs because somebody does not respect GPL licence. Isn't it ironic ?

 

Also, what is even more ironic is that if Lucky1 had agreed to Freezy proposal, in these terms you would consider there is no GPL licence violation, and all  is fine.

The difference between the two pipeline architectures ? Who's in control, that's what. It boils down, at the end of the day, to whoever owns the top of the pipeline.

 

As for your comment on understanding the licence, well... ironic that you would flame Rappelbox for not understanding it, because... You don't either.

 

1/ it's not freezy dll anymore, it's Lcuky fork, and he published the changes. His fork is actually... GPLv2. Check the github. Freezy is completely free to port the changes back into his own fork.

2/ DMDDevice.dll, which sits at the top of the dataflow, is the component that has been modified to call his colorization engine, which in turns call back DMDExt to display on an LCD

 

The one point of debate here is whether because he's calling DMDExt from within his library, should his library be considered as GPLv2 or not in the scope of his distribution mechanism. If he decided to cut the link to DMDExt completely, and did not call it, meaning you would not get support on an LCD (so no fancy colorization on an LCD display), then... well no GPL violation (since he published the changes to DMDDevice.dll). THEN you would really cry.

 

The last straw, which prompted me to react, is the reaction to the charity discussion. 

 

Because seriously...  WHAT ??

 

A guy, from day 1, spent hours writing DMD code, spent hours writing an editor, all of the money is going to a charity, and you still continue to accuse him of "making money" ? Where were you 6 years ago when he released the first PIN2DMD HW ? Where were you when he started to work together with Freezy to enable free colorization for vpin owners ? I checked DMDExt github contributors (guess what by the way, there are only 12 contributors, with two having the most commits - for a user base of a few thousands, that's not a lot of contributors in ratio), I did not see your name on the list, so what gives you the right to disregard his work on the basis.

 

For the record, reseller do not even have to donate to Lucky1, they just need to issue a proof that money has been sent to a charity organization and they get their activation keys (ask Techizy in France he can confirm that - I did). Lucky1 does not even SEE the money in this case.

 

Fun part about that... There is another project called RPI2DMD, which is essentially a base OS running on Linux to use DMDs as a gigantic clock (similar to the original clock_DMD). Closed source, access only to those who donate to charities. NO ONE COMPLAINS. On the contrary, they applaud for a very nice move, the incentive to give, the time invested toward something with no gain in return.

 

And yet... here it's all about "it's a forced donation", "you're making money". I find this whole argument completely twisted.

 

You have colorization today on vpin, BECAUSE of his and Freezy work. Have a little bit of respect, and keep the exchange civil.

 

Now I can understand that there is a disagreement on the best way to move forward, and it's unfortunate that these two essential developers to the community clashed into each other, but that does not give anyone the right to throw insults and discredit the hundred of hours spent. And that applies to both individuals, which is why, should someone start bashing Freezy (unlikely given it's a vpin forum), I would react all the same.

 

Take a step back

Assess the real situation with all data in hands (and not only provided in this thread, which is one way only)

Stay civil

 

Then you have may have a chance of resolving the situation (however unlikely it is right now)

 

But if you want to push Lucky1 to cut all ties a call it a day, then stating "you're full of shit" is the shortest way to achieve that. Or maybe that's actually what you want ?

 

[tabascoman77]

6 hours ago, Ashram56 said:

Which is, honestly, the biggest joke of all time, because... the ENTIRE HOBBY IS BUILT ON COPYRIGHT. You're all treading on a very thin ground on this aspect (ROM, artwork, PuP packs, sound remix, etc), yet you scream at the top of your lungs because somebody does not respect GPL licence. Isn't it ironic ?

 

No, it's not. And it isn't even relevant to the discussion. Everyone here plays by the rules and everyone knows about "gentleman's agreements" and "unspoken rules" with various companies. The community, for the most part, abides by these rules and they don't ignore C&D's and they remove tables and other items pertaining to what is perceived to be IP theft. What you're doing right here is attempting to portray the community as a bunch of careless pirates who rape and pillage and using that to justify bad behavior. Cute try, though.

 

6 hours ago, Ashram56 said:

 

Also, what is even more ironic is that if Lucky1 had agreed to Freezy proposal, in these terms you would consider there is no GPL licence violation, and all  is fine.

 

No, because Freezy and Lucky1 would have worked out an accompanying LEGAL agreement to go with it where each party got proper credit in the end.

 

6 hours ago, Ashram56 said:

The difference between the two pipeline architectures ? Who's in control, that's what. It boils down, at the end of the day, to whoever owns the top of the pipeline.

 

As for your comment on understanding the licence, well... ironic that you would flame Rappelbox for not understanding it, because... You don't either.

 

1/ it's not freezy dll anymore, it's Lcuky fork, and he published the changes. His fork is actually... GPLv2. Check the github. Freezy is completely free to port the changes back into his own fork.

2/ DMDDevice.dll, which sits at the top of the dataflow, is the component that has been modified to call his colorization engine, which in turns call back DMDExt to display on an LCD

 

FROM FREEZY, HIMSELF:

 

"We've already discussed this, but it stands that shipping my code with your proprietary binary violates the GPL. The fact that other packages do it too doesn't legitimize it, and it doesn't matter whether your software works without my code or not."

 

6 hours ago, Ashram56 said:

 

A guy, from day 1, spent hours writing DMD code, spent hours writing an editor, all of the money is going to a charity, and you still continue to accuse him of "making money" ?

 

I don't think you get the fact that taking ANY money is a bad look, regardless of where it's allegedly being "redistributed". I'm not the only one saying this. Especially since this "hobby" you seem so keen on romanticizing is basically based on open-source coding and free distribution, not monetary donations.

 

6 hours ago, Ashram56 said:

Where were you 6 years ago when he released the first PIN2DMD HW ?

 

You mean the hardware which utilized colorizer code from other artists which he was called out for on Pinside? Yeah, I saw that happen. Did you? Jesus...it's not like he doesn't have a history of this behavior.

 

6 hours ago, Ashram56 said:

Where were you when he started to work together with Freezy to enable free colorization for vpin owners ? I checked DMDExt github contributors (guess what by the way, there are only 12 contributors, with two having the most commits - for a user base of a few thousands, that's not a lot of contributors in ratio), I did not see your name on the list, so what gives you the right to disregard his work on the basis.

 

Really? You're gonna use the "Let's see YOU do it" argument? Just when I thought you were running dry on credibility...

 

6 hours ago, Ashram56 said:

You have colorization today on vpin, BECAUSE of his and Freezy work. Have a little bit of respect, and keep the exchange civil.

 

It's civil. Calling somebody out for their bullshit is also civil. It ain't the first time, chief.

 

6 hours ago, Ashram56 said:

But if you want to push Lucky1 to cut all ties a call it a day, then stating "you're full of shit" is the shortest way to achieve that. Or maybe that's actually what you want ?

 

Oh my god, really? This is the most whiny, poor-me, gaslight-y thing you could ever post. "You better be nice or...or...or...OR HE'LL TAKE HIS BALL AND GO HOME!!!"

 

Are you SERIOUSLY making a threat here? "Say nice things and don't question anything or else he will leave and we'll all be in limbo"?

Wow...

 

Cry me a freakin' river and get real.

 

That is all.

[hcj13]

Marvel vs. Capcom. Team Freezy vs. Team Lucky. 
 

I really hope we can stop the public arguing and work this out behind closed doors and in a way move forward for the benefit of the community. Regardless of outcome. 

[LynnInDenver]

So I've received a little more information privately.

 

I will be bowing out of this discussion for the time being.

 

I also will be going without colorization on my vpin until most of the Fear Uncertainty and Doubt has been cleared out. There's too many questions not being publicly answered right now for me to do otherwise.

[freezy]

While I would love to join the fun, I think it's better to lock this thread for now.

 

It seems that there has been some development, and I'll unlock and keep you guys updated when there is something to report.

 

Thanks for the all the support so far.

[freezy]

To all coloring authors: I've initiated a discussion about the future of dmdext and colorizations in a private club. You should all be invited, but currently VPU's notifications for club invites doesn't seem to work.

 

In order to participate, please join the club here, the discussion is here. If you don't have access and you're a coloring author, let me know and I'll add you. I've invited the people mentioned in this post.

 

Cheers!

[freezy]

I've written a follow-up of the situation here.