3rdaxis removed tables due to VPD guy

[Dazz]

This guy is single handily trying everything he can to ruin these communities.  

I'll be honestly with ya; there is NO real way to stop anyone 100% from accessing any site.  However, practices that I've put into place on VPU seems to be curbing his attacks here.

 

It appears that 3rdaxis decided to remove his content from VPUniverse.  Without any communications with me.  Looks like 3rdaxis is only going to be posting on VPF where the VPD guy has at the least 4 active accounts.  I can guarantee that VPF does not have the extra layers of security, IP detection that VPU does, yet people rather have content stolen from there...  

 

This guy has tried to register 8 different accounts on VPU and has attempted to use over 25 different IP addresses.  All IP addresses have been blocked.  I am actively monitoring any newly created accounts, accounts from specific countries have to be manually approved/verified.

 

Running HyperSpin for 20+ years taught me that… removing content is admitting defeat. If a content creator chooses to remove content from VPU that is completely up to them.  

[KiwiBri]

He's also posted links to a pack of 100s of music mP3s.. which he admits he has provided for free download..   I'm thinking the music industry should know about this.. 

[TerryRed]

I've said it before...and I'll say it again. Make tables, B2S, PuP-Packs, etc because you love to do it.

 

If any of you are thinking that your work will never be shared / posted on other sites / torrents... you are kidding yourself. Everyone is giving this guy WAY too much exposure and time. Clearly has nothing better to do. Unless he is doing something over the line (like identity theft, etc), then don't acknowledge that his existence is worth giving two thoughts about. 

 

Pulling tables from the "VP" community sites because someone posts them elsewhere makes no sense to me. You are just doing the opposite of what you think your are avoiding. You are making those other sites more appealing to others.

 

Take a page from JPSalas, and others. They post their stuff knowing it gets posted elsewhere at some point. That doesn't stop them from doing what they enjoy in this "hobby".

 

Same goes for me. I do what I do because I have fun with it, and I like seeing others enjoy it. This is a "hobby", not a product or job. I know at some point whatever I work on will be found at locations I didn't post them. Oh well... big frigging deal. I may not like it or support it, but why would I decide to pull anything I work on because of that, or stop doing what I enjoy? If anything the guys who download from these locations will lose out on updates / support since they have no clue about how any of it works.

 

Don't let the ass-hats win. This is OUR hobby. So lets enjoy it, and move on.

[bord]

I don't disagree with any of you re: reason for creating and sharing content, reasonable expectation of assholery, etc. But I would caution not be too harsh on guys that want to pull their stuff. 3rdaxis got doxxed by this knob. If you feel violated or endangered, which clearly the Australian menace is capable of engendering in people, then retreat and removal is a natural instinct and one that the best version of the VP community should allow. Refusing to remove someone's project at their request puts you pretty near the character of the guy that is causing all the problems. We need to continue allowing authors to exit on their terms, even if we don't believe it is productive. We're already set to shed a good majority of table authors between 2020 and 2021. As it continues to happen (and it will) let's just tip our hat in thanks for the fun and wish them godspeed. If this is a healthy community of contributors someone else will make Firepower and share it.

 

What prompted @3rdaxis' reaction to this site vs. another I can't say, but I still encourage a cordial farewell before we get back to the business of enjoying making things with others. I'd hate to see us all burying the guys actually making stuff instead of keeping our eyes on the real problem.

 

tldr; Not disagreeing with Dazz or Terry, just trying to focus the conversation on the problem.

[Thalamus]

Well said my friend.

[astronasty]

I feel bad that shit is so crazy right now.  I love pinball and I love all of you making it a doable hobby in my 2 br condo.  I just want to spread good vibes.  Also, I hope that RF2 will be like ending in Bill & Ted and be the table that will align the planets and bring harmony to our hobby.  No pressure @TerryRed

[TerryRed]

4 hours ago, bord said:

I don't disagree with any of you re: reason for creating and sharing content, reasonable expectation of assholery, etc. But I would caution not be too harsh on guys that want to pull their stuff. 3rdaxis got doxxed by this knob. If you feel violated or endangered, which clearly the Australian menace is capable of engendering in people, then retreat and removal is a natural instinct and one that the best version of the VP community should allow. Refusing to remove someone's project at their request puts you pretty near the character of the guy that is causing all the problems. We need to continue allowing authors to exit on their terms, even if we don't believe it is productive. We're already set to shed a good majority of table authors between 2020 and 2021. As it continues to happen (and it will) let's just tip our hat in thanks for the fun and wish them godspeed. If this is a healthy community of contributors someone else will make Firepower and share it.

 

What prompted @3rdaxis' reaction to this site vs. another I can't say, but I still encourage a cordial farewell before we get back to the business of enjoying making things with others. I'd hate to see us all burying the guys actually making stuff instead of keeping our eyes on the real problem.

 

tldr; Not disagreeing with Dazz or Terry, just trying to focus the conversation on the problem.

 

 

Like I said about Knorr's reasons... if there are "serious" reasons for pulling content, I will always support that. I just don't want guys like @3rdaxis feeling like pulling their content from vpu, vpf, pn, etc is the solution to avoiding seeing their content posted on undesirable sites. It simply won't stop it from happening. This is nothing new... it's just a different turd doing it.

 

The intent was to encourage them to keep doing what they enjoy... not condemn, in my own frustrated way.

 

 

[DeathInc]

WOW, maybe we should have just given up when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. It seems to be the way to do it these days.  

I am sorry, this is not "the way". (Giving Up)  It's Sad!!

[Rawnei]

Who is this person and why is he so persistent? Has anyone talked to him? What is his motives? I find the whole thing very odd!

[TerryRed]

10 hours ago, bord said:

I don't disagree with any of you re: reason for creating and sharing content, reasonable expectation of assholery, etc. But I would caution not be too harsh on guys that want to pull their stuff. 3rdaxis got doxxed by this knob. If you feel violated or endangered, which clearly the Australian menace is capable of engendering in people, then retreat and removal is a natural instinct and one that the best version of the VP community should allow. Refusing to remove someone's project at their request puts you pretty near the character of the guy that is causing all the problems. We need to continue allowing authors to exit on their terms, even if we don't believe it is productive. We're already set to shed a good majority of table authors between 2020 and 2021. As it continues to happen (and it will) let's just tip our hat in thanks for the fun and wish them godspeed. If this is a healthy community of contributors someone else will make Firepower and share it.

 

What prompted @3rdaxis' reaction to this site vs. another I can't say, but I still encourage a cordial farewell before we get back to the business of enjoying making things with others. I'd hate to see us all burying the guys actually making stuff instead of keeping our eyes on the real problem.

 

tldr; Not disagreeing with Dazz or Terry, just trying to focus the conversation on the problem.

 

 

Before anyone reads what I type below... note I am NOT referring to 3rdaxis or anyone one in particular... as this is more of a general statement. This is not about 3rdaxis, knorr removing their stuff. I'll always support the removal of content for serious / legal type reasons.

 

 

What I am talking about now is... I personally am done walking on ice for super-sensitive fragile people acting like toddlers.

 

We've all benefitted from the works of others. All of us. Doesn't matter if you are just a player, an author, tester, coder, modeler, etc. It quite frankly stinks to think that someone could help with a project (days, weeks, months, etc), just to see the head of the project decide to to take that release down because of drama or a temper-tantrum.

 

It sucks to think that some tables or other content I put a lot of time into may never be available anymore because the main author has taken it down or has left the scene altogether.

 

Needless to say, I won't help others with projects or support anymore unless its made very clear that the project when finished is to be made available for "everyone" to enjoy. If they decide they don't want to share it anymore... too bad! (unless we are talking serious / legal reasons) No more "take-me-backs" for anything I contribute my time to. I have every right to share the efforts of my time and work with others as well. No more of this crap. It's time for everyone to grow up.

 

 

[LynnInDenver]

3 hours ago, TerryRed said:

Needless to say, I won't help others with projects or support anymore unless its made very clear that the project when finished is to be made available for "everyone" to enjoy. If they decide they don't want to share it anymore... too bad! (unless we are talking serious / legal reasons) No more "take-me-backs" for anything I contribute my time to. I have every right to share the efforts of my time and work with others as well. No more of this crap. It's time for everyone to grow up.

 

This is a realistic and mature stance on the whole thing, I don't blame you since I had a contribution on two of those projects that you worked on and are now not available except through the gray area of "hey, do you happen to have x table from this author you could send me?".

 

While I will support authors being able to pull their work down for any and all reasons, regardless, I also recognize that comes with a cost to the community. I mostly support the being able to pull down regardless of reason because some people can (and will) insist that being doxxed and harassed is NOT a good enough reason, and I believe that it is because it rapidly makes a hobby not only not fun, but also adds on the spectre of serious emotional (or physical) harm on top of that. I am a trans woman on the internet; harassment is always a persistent threat for me, regardless of where I happen to be posting, and needs to be considered. This is actually a serious legitimate knock against VPF for me, since Noah really wants to not remove content at all, and I think if he had a choice he'd not even remove for stated legal reasons unless a lawyer showed up at VirtuaPin with a physical letter titled Cease and Desist.

 

There's really no solution to the "repackaging and/or selling of table content" problem right now... literally the only solution I can see is making 100% original IP content so that you can go after people if need be and have it actually stick (not really worth it unless you're also selling the table content you've made). The only other "solution" would be one of the original IP owners starting to go "scorched earth", which might be a higher risk now with the Licensed Commercial Virtual Pincabs that are now for sale, since now the market for the physical virtual pinball cabinet properly exists for the IP owners to consider - Gottlieb is the most likely to do this from historical data. And there is truth to the fact that pulling content because it's been repackaged is counterproductive, because some people will go for those packs because they see that's the only way to get the table now.

[ARMYAVIATION]

@Dazz, thankyou again for being there for us and fighting for us. I do not agree with pulling tables.... or sites.... it only hurts the good guys and gives victory to the bad. Just my opinion but I understand others. Thanks again Dazz!

[leojreimroc]

I haven't posted anything on the subject, but I've been thinking about it for a while.  Before I make my thoughts known, I'd like to start, like Terry, with a few disclaimers.  First, of course, people can take down their own content if they choose to, and I'm not going to say that people should keep their projects up if they want it down.  I'm also relatively still very new to the scene, so I'm not as invested as some of the veterans that are on here who have spent over a decade working on these things.   My opinions are not set in stone, and I'm willing to discuss anything with anyone.   With that out of the way, on to my thoughts.

 

 

1-Taking down tables only hurts the community and helps the people with the packs.  These people get the tables when they come out and keep them.  Normal people are not in a rush:  "I'll download it later".   Then it gets taken and there's a big feeling like you missed out and a feeling of loss.  Meanwhile, the pack sellers are laughing because they not have the only available version.  It becomes more valuable and more likely that it will be sold.    Making something freely available and very easy to get makes it much less likely to be sold.  Only the truly lazy or tech illiterate will buy them.  More people from the community will have be able to access the tables and the community will be healthier and stronger as a result.  Creating droughts and the feeling of being rushed to get content (FOMO) does the complete opposite.

 

2- VPX is complicated.  Yes, there are guides, yes "anyone" can make it work.  But the simple fact is, that it can be very complicated and finicky.  Most of us here are very proficient with a PC.  Myself, I'm not a IT person, and I don't work in computers.  However, I'm skilled with googling issues,   I know how to find the right forums to ask questions if I have problems,  I know what a registry is and how to change it, etc etc.  More importantly, I enjoy tinkering with PCs and software.  I'm confident that if I encounter a problem, there is a solution somewhere and I can eventually find it with the right keyword on google, or by asking in the right place.   The great majority of people do not have those skills or do not enjoy that kind of work.  I have not checked out the VPD guy, so I'm not sure what he does specifically.  Just for the record, he sounds like complete asshole and I'm not going to defend his character at all.  However,  I'm under the impression that he builds tables and packages tables with them.  If that's the case, in my opinion, he is not selling tables.  He is selling the cabinet and his time in setting up vpx with the tables.  I think some people just want to play pinball and don't want the hassle in setting everything up, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them.  I don't want to build my own car, I just want to drive.  I don't want to build my own house, I just want a place to live.  We all only have so many hours in a day, and if you don't enjoy working with computers, does that mean that you don't get to enjoy these fantastic tables?  I just don't agree with the argument that if you don't learn how to setup the software, you don't deserve to play these tables.  Pinball is a very niche hobby, and if someone just wants to play, I see no problem in limiting that.  Because if they start with a table pack and a really cool table comes out, they'll have to learn how to download and add it, and the community grows.

 

3-Piracy sucks but it's a reality of life.  But companies don't stop making content because some people pirate their content.  The same should be the case with us.  The pack sellers are really just the people with the same mentality as people who pirate software.  It sucks, but it's just the way it is.  Stopping something  you enjoy doing, or taking away content that you've already offered to the community only makes them more visible and puts them in a better position.

 

 

[Wildman]

Well Said... totally agree taking down your work just hurts everybody but the assholes stealing the shit,they dont care..

side note .... Why I say I made it and said before anybody can mod or do whatever with my shit, just give credit..

Your not going to stop the shitheads stealing and selling shit, Its the internet once you upload it its not yours no more.. PERIOD

you can argue the fact till the day you die  lol...  This hobby is all about that very thing that everybody is crying about, everything made in VP

is based off somebody else's  work or contribution or just taking a simple picture..Like i hear other guys say .. GROW THE FUCK UP AND MOVE ON!!!!!

Build it cause you love doing it and enjoy it and fuck the dirtbags..  If you cant handle that then dont make shit then bitch about it later ,

IF thats how you go through life with blinders on and not look at reality of things just sit at home and make shit for yourself and dont post it for all

then take it away..  As much as i disagree with Paul at VPF about alot of shit ,I do agree with the not taking files down once you share and upload them,

its just childish ..!!     only newbees are the one's that will goto the shit sites until they learn were the real action is LOL..

SO PLEASE FOR THE SAKE OF THE HOBBY CHILL THE HELL OUT.. GRAB A BEER... AND JUST PLAY FUCKIN PINBALL AND ENJOY  🤪

Im pretty sure thats why we are all here for RIGHT? Sure aint to make money 

 

[druadic]

I would like to personally thank both Dazz and TerryRed when this guy came over to Pinball Nirvana. He is something else and attacked me outright as I did my best to be civil to him but would like to agree that stopping or pulling tables away from folks is kind of a bummer. I may only make desktop tables over at PN but I refuse to give in. I just have fun making these not just for myself, but enjoy making them for everyone else. Call it "getting a high" just to see the posts from folks as they enjoy what you release is kind of what does it for me. I just love those old pin machines but can;t stop making them.

 

Dazz and TerryRed, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for stepping up and not only supporting everyone over there but by making everyone aware of who this guy is.

 

So much appreciated! Keep on pinballin'!

 

-d

 

PS: This is my 2nd post since 2014 and I have not posted over here since I didn't think I had an account over here but the above needed to be said and I for one would like to add it is something we can all agree upon.

Edited May 9, 2021 by druadic
update

[njk70]

7 hours ago, Wildman said:

Im pretty sure thats why we are all here for RIGHT? Sure aint to make money 

 

 

I'm here for fame and groupies. Ummmm.... did I pick the wrong hobby?

[FreddyZ]

On 5/8/2021 at 12:15 AM, DeathInc said:

WOW, maybe we should have just given up when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. It seems to be the way to do it these days.  

I am sorry, this is not "the way". (Giving Up)  It's Sad!!

Uhhmm...it was the Germans that bombed Pearl Harbor 

 

[TerryRed]

23 hours ago, FreddyZ said:

Uhhmm...it was the Germans that bombed Pearl Harbor 

 

 

Only us older farts will get that.

 

 

[Johngreve]

“Let him go....he’s on a roll”

[Johngreve]

7 hours ago, TerryRed said:

 

Only us older farts will get that.

 

 

“Let him go....he’s on a roll”

[ARMYAVIATION]

I think Randr proved to all of us that taking things down only hurt the good guys and do nothing for the bad ones.  The only thing good that came out of this was VPU, but we lost a lot of time and hard work

[JFR1]

What? Over? Did you say over? Nothing is over until we say it is!

 

Sorry. Couldn't resist. 

[ARMYAVIATION]

I swear, the more I read the shit that people post over at VPF I wonder what the fuck kind of kool aid they are drinking over there.  These people are fucking crazy.  And they are all drinking the kool aid.   I am done trying to be partisan.  

[ARMYAVIATION]

Over

[Wylte]

24 minutes ago, ARMYAVIATION said:

I swear, the more I read the shit that people post over at VPF I wonder what the fuck kind of kool aid they are drinking over there.  These people are fucking crazy.  And they are all drinking the kool aid.   I am done trying to be partisan.  

I mean, if you're talking about the Pennant topic... you were really only talking to 2 people, and one runs the site.  Plus a couple other people who posted about different tangents (like me).  Like most places: 90% of people are silent, 9% are just there to talk about things that are relevant to them, and 1% are active.

I will say that the conversations are dominated by a smaller number of people on VPF.

Overall:  I think there is less volume of posts over here but much better variety of opinions, so conversations don't get as...heated...as often.

 

To throw my hat in the ring on this post's topic:  I still don't understand why 3rdaxis would move stuff from here to there.  I respect the right to do so, but it only hurts the good part of the community.  Assholes can follow you anywhere if they want. Files can be scraped and added to a site/pack either way.  Like others have said: upload with that expectation, and make the legitimate pathways the easiest to keep people away from shady sources.