Saving Wallden Updates (formerly "Departing the VP Community")

[Guest]

Hello everyone,

 

I am departing the Visual Pinball community. I do not know if I will be returning (and if so, I don't know when; likely, it will be several years if I do come back later).

 

While I support VP's mission to preserve pinball history and be a free and open source platform, it is no longer economical for me to participate in the hobby with my financial situation.

 

The amount of time it takes to make a table to the quality standards most expect nowadays is equivalent to a full-time developer job (and in the VP community, this is unpaid). I simply cannot afford that anymore. And I was not receiving the help and support I was hoping to receive within the community so that the load could be lightened.

 

As such, this is my farewell as I venture off new paths that make more economical sense for me.

 

Some other notes:

• Saving Wallden will never happen. I shut the project down because at its current pace, it would have taken another 10 - 15 years at minimum to complete. That was unacceptable. And of course, with me leaving VP to focus on other ventures, I won't have any more time for it. And by the time I come back to VP if I do, the VPX programs would have likely progressed so much that it would make no economical sense "upgrading" Saving Wallden. So it was best to just discontinue it completely. I've asked time and time again for assistance to no avail, therefore that is why I also did not decide to publicly release it for others to work on instead; I figured no one would be interested in doing so. And if I'm wrong, well, you should have spoken up sooner.
• Piggy Bank Blitz will remain up for download. But I am offering no more support for it. There will be no more new versions. I will not be replying to any inquiries, comments, etc.
• I will not be doing any more work on the script classes I developed nor the VPW VB code formatter. The scripts will remain up on my GitLab at https://gitlab.com/PDStig/vpin-workshop-code-formatter and https://gitlab.com/PDStig/vpin-workshop-scripts . But I'm providing no more support / commits for them.
• This account will probably be deleted (because this is a Discord-integrated account, and I'm deleting my Discord account, so I'd lose login abilities to this account anyway). I do not wish to remain in touch with anyone at this time. You can find me on YouTube if you really want to be in contact, but please do not contact me unless it's absolutely urgent. I just want to put VP aside for now so I can focus on what I really need to focus on right now in life.

 

Thank you for understanding.

 

EDIT: The above points are no longer entirely true after much consideration and feedback from the community in this thread. I am still going to be away from working on VP for a while until my finances stabilize, but things are looking more promising.

Edited February 22 by Arelyel

[Cliffy]

Real life matters most. Take care and thanks for the contributions, Arelyel. Best on your future

[xenonph]

1 hour ago, Arelyel said:

Hello everyone,

 

I am departing the Visual Pinball community. I do not know if I will be returning (and if so, I don't know when; likely, it will be several years if I do come back later).

 

While I support VP's mission to preserve pinball history and be a free and open source platform, it is no longer economical for me to participate in the hobby with my financial situation.

 

The amount of time it takes to make a table to the quality standards most expect nowadays is equivalent to a full-time developer job (and in the VP community, this is unpaid). I simply cannot afford that anymore. And I was not receiving the help and support I was hoping to receive within the community so that the load could be lightened.

 

As such, this is my farewell as I venture off new paths that make more economical sense for me.

 

Some other notes:

• Saving Wallden will never happen. I shut the project down because at its current pace, it would have taken another 10 - 15 years at minimum to complete. That was unacceptable. And of course, with me leaving VP to focus on other ventures, I won't have any more time for it. And by the time I come back to VP if I do, the VPX programs would have likely progressed so much that it would make no economical sense "upgrading" Saving Wallden. So it was best to just discontinue it completely. I've asked time and time again for assistance to no avail, therefore that is why I also did not decide to publicly release it for others to work on instead; I figured no one would be interested in doing so. And if I'm wrong, well, you should have spoken up sooner.
• Piggy Bank Blitz will remain up for download. But I am offering no more support for it. There will be no more new versions. I will not be replying to any inquiries, comments, etc.
• I will not be doing any more work on the script classes I developed nor the VPW VB code formatter. The scripts will remain up on my GitLab at https://gitlab.com/PDStig/vpin-workshop-code-formatter and https://gitlab.com/PDStig/vpin-workshop-scripts . But I'm providing no more support / commits for them.
• This account will probably be deleted (because this is a Discord-integrated account, and I'm deleting my Discord account, so I'd lose login abilities to this account anyway). I do not wish to remain in touch with anyone at this time. You can find me on YouTube if you really want to be in contact, but please do not contact me unless it's absolutely urgent. I just want to put VP aside for now so I can focus on what I really need to focus on right now in life.

 

Thank you for understanding.

 

Hate to see anyone leave the pinball community, and specially with an anouncement like this.

You make it sound like we all have to choose between either being a member of this Pinball Community, or taking care of our financial obligations in real life.

It can be a balancing act sometimes, but both can be achieved.

Like you say, nobody gets paid for their work or time spent on this community.

Most use all the spare time they can conjure up out of their real lives, to help bring these Pinball Treasures to the community.

But to cut all ties, and to say please don't contact me, because you'd rather not speak to anyone, and saying you want to distance yourself from this community and anyone in it, because it is somehow a distraction to you financially?

 

I have a funny suspicion, that your problem has nothing to do with this community.

But by all means, please cut the pinball community out of your life, if you think you will be better for it.

But know this....this community was not the bane of all your problems. It is the cure.

 

Carry on.

[Guest]

19 hours ago, xenonph said:

 

Hate to see anyone leave the pinball community, and specially with an anouncement like this.

You make it sound like we all have to choose between either being a member of this Pinball Community, or taking care of our financial obligations in real life.

It can be a balancing act sometimes, but both can be achieved.

Like you say, nobody gets paid for their work or time spent on this community.

Most use all the spare time they can conjure up out of their real lives, to help bring these Pinball Treasures to the community.

But to cut all ties, and to say please don't contact me, because you'd rather not speak to anyone, and saying you want to distance yourself from this community and anyone in it, because it is somehow a distraction to you financially?

 

I have a funny suspicion, that your problem has nothing to do with this community.

But by all means, please cut the pinball community out of your life, if you think you will be better for it.

But know this....this community was not the bane of all your problems. It is the cure.

 

Carry on.

 

(Note this account will be deleted at any time, so once it's gone, I won't be able to reply anymore)
 

Quote

"You make it sound like we all have to choose between either being a member of this Pinball Community, or taking care of our financial obligations in real life."

If that's how I sound, then I did not intend to sound like that. I'm speaking for myself only, not for others in the community. Not everyone has this dichotomy. In fact, most probably don't. But most people in the VP community also don't live in poverty like I do TMK (which is the answer to your other question... yes, my problem has [mostly] nothing to do with the community, but it impacts my ability to participate anymore at this time).

 

Most people can balance it. I cannot. When you live on the edge like I do, you have to make sacrifices because you don't have enough (if any) of a safety net to compromise / balance. As such, I need to focus as much of my attention and "spare time" as possible on getting more work so I can keep up with my expenses (which are lower than the average person's, but still barely able to afford for me). I can't afford to use any of my spare time anymore to VP. Every hour spent here is another hour of work I could have earned to pay my bills.

 

VP is distracting for me. I'd rather be working on getting the table(s) I wanted to develop published so people can enjoy them than doing most anything else. The scripting involved keeps my brain active and keeps me thinking. It's enjoyable. But it's not economical. I can't afford to participate when I could, and should be, spending that time on more work. The act of cutting myself off from VP is not because I have a problem with the community but because it is a self disciplinary measure. I know if I see or get presented with anything VP that I'll want to change my attention to it. And then I'll get distracted. And again, I need as much time as I can possibly afford to work or I won't be able to afford my bills anymore.

So yes, you are right. The community is not the problem (aside from the fact that if I got paid to develop tables, then I wouldn't have to do this, but that's not what I am asking for because, for good reason, it goes against the core values of the community). The problem is the economy.

[xenonph]

1 hour ago, Arelyel said:

 

(Note this account will be deleted at any time, so once it's gone, I won't be able to reply anymore)
 

If that's how I sound, then I did not intend to sound like that. I'm speaking for myself only, not for others in the community. Not everyone has this dichotomy. In fact, most probably don't. But most people in the VP community also don't live in poverty like I do TMK (which is the answer to your other question... yes, my problem has [mostly] nothing to do with the community, but it impacts my ability to participate anymore at this time).

 

Most people can balance it. I cannot. When you live on the edge like I do, you have to make sacrifices because you don't have enough (if any) of a safety net to compromise / balance. As such, I need to focus as much of my attention and "spare time" as possible on getting more work so I can keep up with my expenses (which are lower than the average person's, but still barely able to afford for me). I can't afford to use any of my spare time anymore to VP. Every hour spent here is another hour of work I could have earned to pay my bills.

 

VP is distracting for me. I'd rather be working on getting the table(s) I wanted to develop published so people can enjoy them than doing most anything else. The scripting involved keeps my brain active and keeps me thinking. It's enjoyable. But it's not economical. I can't afford to participate when I could, and should be, spending that time on more work. The act of cutting myself off from VP is not because I have a problem with the community but because it is a self disciplinary measure. I know if I see or get presented with anything VP that I'll want to change my attention to it. And then I'll get distracted. And again, I need as much time as I can possibly afford to work or I won't be able to afford my bills anymore.

So yes, you are right. The community is not the problem (aside from the fact that if I got paid to develop tables, then I wouldn't have to do this, but that's not what I am asking for because, for good reason, it goes against the core values of the community). The problem is the economy.

 

Well hopefully everything works out for you in the end.

We will be here with open arms to welcome you back, even if things don't get better for you.

Hang in there.

This too shall pass.

Things will get better.

[Guest]

Appreciated.

 

I've had to do this one other time before back in the 2000s, though the reasoning back then was mostly mental health. I was gone for a while... a few years at least (I can't remember exactly how long), but I did eventually come back.

 

Unfortunately, with this new hardship, I have to gear my focus away from VP again. I'll likely be back again. But it might be another few years. My circumstances put me at a disadvantage in the job market, so it will take me much longer than most to find a stable job, thus why I predict this will be another extended leave for me. Meanwhile, I'm doing various web development work as "survival income". I can't say I'll be "fine", but I'll survive long enough to reach "fine" status again, however long that takes. And hopefully I'll be back again when I have spare time I can afford to VP.

 

I just wish making tables didn't take so much time, effort, and skill. That's the biggest drawback for me. I would have released easily at least 5 - 10 tables by now if the effort and learning curve wasn't so big for a volunteer hobby. But I've only managed to release 2 technically (Piggy Bank Blitz, and one other table I released on VPF a long time ago I can't remember the name of but remembered it was absolute garbage). And I had numerous scrapped projects, Saving Wallden being the newest addition to the scrapped list.

 

Maybe the era of VPE will bring in some much needed change in the VP ecosystem and make creating amazing tables much easier and quicker to do.

[xenonph]

2 hours ago, Arelyel said:

Appreciated.

 

I've had to do this one other time before back in the 2000s, though the reasoning back then was mostly mental health. I was gone for a while... a few years at least (I can't remember exactly how long), but I did eventually come back.

 

Unfortunately, with this new hardship, I have to gear my focus away from VP again. I'll likely be back again. But it might be another few years. My circumstances put me at a disadvantage in the job market, so it will take me much longer than most to find a stable job, thus why I predict this will be another extended leave for me. Meanwhile, I'm doing various web development work as "survival income". I can't say I'll be "fine", but I'll survive long enough to reach "fine" status again, however long that takes. And hopefully I'll be back again when I have spare time I can afford to VP.

 

I just wish making tables didn't take so much time, effort, and skill. That's the biggest drawback for me. I would have released easily at least 5 - 10 tables by now if the effort and learning curve wasn't so big for a volunteer hobby. But I've only managed to release 2 technically (Piggy Bank Blitz, and one other table I released on VPF a long time ago I can't remember the name of but remembered it was absolute garbage). And I had numerous scrapped projects, Saving Wallden being the newest addition to the scrapped list.

 

Maybe the era of VPE will bring in some much needed change in the VP ecosystem and make creating amazing tables much easier and quicker to do.

 

Have you tried to just modify a table that exists already?

This is much easier to do, than build one from ground up.  (I am a table modder.)

Making a table from scratch, is the most difficult of all.

Scoring system is number 1 on the list.

EM tables I think are harder to create than SS rom tables.

All of the scoring control is in the script, rather than the rom.

(This makes Future Pinball table authors really special, as they are not using roms for the scoring emulation of rom based tables!)

Physics and lighting are numbers 2 and 3 on the list.

So no need to worry about scoring, physics, or lighting, as the original table authors made these things already.

Your focus is just on, new graphics, sounds and music, maybe new flashers and such.

Less stress,  and no need to have physics degree, which you probably would need, to know how to build tables from ground up.

Usually you can ask questions in the forums, and people are happy to help you solve any problems you may come across.

 

Do what is best for you. That is all that matters.

Edited November 19, 2023 by xenonph

[Guest]

"Have you tried to just modify a table that exists already?"

I thought about that, but I run into two big problems with this:

1. If I do that, then it's a MOD, not an original. And I prefer to make originals with my own game play etc.
2. I struggle immensely with editing things that are already made. I don't know why. In fact, Saving Wallden was originally supposed to be a heavy modification of said garbage table I released a long time ago. But I found myself pulling my hair editing the table elements and the script from the old table. I find this to be the case elsewhere too, and not just in pinball but anything coding. It takes me a long time to make edits to existing code. I can write my own code at a faster rate than editing existing code. So in the end, I don't think it would have actually saved me much time.
   With Saving Wallden, a large majority of the table elements and physics were already in place. The big hold-up was coding in the game play because, although scripting is my strong suit in the VP community, this also involved having to make several PinUp and FlexDMD screens. So it was extremely time consuming. Graphics/art and anything related to that (appearance, Blender toolkit, light maps, etc) are far beyond my expertise, so those would have been a major hold-up too.
    

Also, I asked several times before, Discord and in the forums. While I received periodic helpful responses here and there, I often didn't get any response, especially for things I needed the most assistance on. So I basically gave up asking for help. Plus, the reality as mentioned was people just weren't that interested in Saving Wallden. I had some interested, but most were only interested in beta testing / seeing the final product. No one was interested in helping me with development aside from a few voice actors.

I guess I can see part of the reason why though. Saving Wallden was going to be basically 100% original. That means it would be built from scratch, and it would not be based on any existing Intellectual Property (e.g. some people make tables based on movies, TV shows, bands, etc., but Saving Wallden was based off of nothing... its theme was entirely fictional). It probably would have been difficult for anyone to provide any help.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Arelyel

[Gravy]

On 11/20/2023 at 7:28 PM, Arelyel said:

 

Also, I asked several times before, Discord and in the forums. While I received periodic helpful responses here and there, I often didn't get any response, especially for things I needed the most assistance on. So I basically gave up asking for help. Plus, the reality as mentioned was people just weren't that interested in Saving Wallden. I had some interested, but most were only interested in beta testing / seeing the final product. No one was interested in helping me with development aside from a few voice actors.

I guess I can see part of the reason why though. Saving Wallden was going to be basically 100% original. That means it would be built from scratch, and it would not be based on any existing Intellectual Property (e.g. some people make tables based on movies, TV shows, bands, etc., but Saving Wallden was based off of nothing... its theme was entirely fictional). It probably would have been difficult for anyone to provide any help.

I think you nailed the reason for the lack of help on the head, people are probably more likely to help out with resources and such when it's a real table and they have a connection to it or are able to supply graphics etc. Personal projects, especially those with no real world link to an existing theme may be harder to collaborate on due to conflicts with direction etc. 

Perhaps some of the problems you asked for help with were not clearly defined, or the person that really needed to see the post and could have helped was away that week and missed it. Consider directing a help request at a particular member you think may have the knowledge to help, you might then build a relationship with them and even find a lifelong friend or at least someone with a common interest that you can chat to on occasion and share knowledge when required.

Remember also that this community is not just about building tables, if that's what you are into then great, but otherwise... just play and have fun. Give some feedback on existing tables, or help out where you can. If it's encroaching on your time in terms of your earning potential or family life then that's something you need to decide for yourself, if you are the kind of person that needs to completely cut ties with something to enable you to distance yourself from it then that's fine too.

I also think that you should reconsider releasing your table as is, there could be something in there that someone is able to use as a base and your legwork will be part of the history, you might pop back here in 5 years and see your work in a shiny new release, or it might just sit and gather dust, either way at least you made it available. Better than letting something die completely in my opinion.

I must say I worry a little when I read posts like this as it can be a sign of other issues in someone's life, all I can say is I wish you all the best and if you are going through something rough then keep going.

[Guest]

23 hours ago, Gravy said:

Consider directing a help request at a particular member you think may have the knowledge to help, you might then build a relationship with them and even find a lifelong friend or at least someone with a common interest that you can chat to on occasion and share knowledge when required.

I had mixed results with this. This is how I managed to find a couple voice actors for the table, which was a blessing. Unfortunately, my network is very small, so often I'd have to make a public post anyway to find people to contact, so why not just pose the request itself? But doing that usually yielded no help. Furthermore, I have "hierarchy syndrome" where I'm not going to bother some established (and therefore probably busy) member of the community to help out with a dinky personal project run by me, someone who is not really that established in the community (and for good reason; I don't have the time for that kind of unpaid responsibility given my financial situation), when they likely have more important things to work on.

 

On 12/9/2023 at 5:50 PM, Gravy said:

Remember also that this community is not just about building tables, if that's what you are into then great, but otherwise... just play and have fun.

While I do enjoy to a degree playing tables, I enjoy building them more than simply playing them. Part of the reason is because I have a seizure disorder. I've had seizures from playing too much pinball before. So I need to be careful with that. I don't have to worry as much when I'm building tables because, while I still play as part of testing, I don't have to do full playthroughs at once. I also do better as a beta tester when there is something specific to test. I can set up the table to test that one thing so again I don't have to play 20+ consecutive minutes with intense flashing lights. I did help out with scripting some, but yeah, the VP hobby was taking too much of my time in general. I have to prioritize finances. Many of the hobbyists here are older than me and lived in a time where the middle class actually existed per-se. Times are much more tough now. I can't afford to spend much time in free hobbies like older generations could / can.

 

On 12/9/2023 at 5:50 PM, Gravy said:

I also think that you should reconsider releasing your table as is, there could be something in there that someone is able to use as a base and your legwork will be part of the history, you might pop back here in 5 years and see your work in a shiny new release, or it might just sit and gather dust, either way at least you made it available. Better than letting something die completely in my opinion.

I'm actually considering this. Unfortunately I lost the PUP pack in a file transfer malfunction. But that got me thinking. Maybe I should just ditch the PUP pack for now... focus on the core components of the game (when I can again, if I can), and the fancy stuff like PUP, (other) voice actors, artwork, etc can come later.

 

On 12/9/2023 at 5:50 PM, Gravy said:

I must say I worry a little when I read posts like this as it can be a sign of other issues in someone's life

Nothing major. But you wouldn't be wrong. It's just stress from finances and frustration from how much time it takes to build a table. The VPX hobby is amazing and amazing accomplishments have been made. But the standards are now unrealistically high for table creation given that this is a free hobby.

[Gravy]

1 hour ago, Arelyel said:

Nothing major. But you wouldn't be wrong. It's just stress from finances and frustration from how much time it takes to build a table. The VPX hobby is amazing and amazing accomplishments have been made. But the standards are now unrealistically high for table creation given that this is a free hobby.

Regarding asking for help from the pros, doesn't hurt to ask, they may say yes/no/maybe later/no reply.

Interesting comment regarding seizures, some tables have some very intense flashers. Would be nice if there was a global setting to disable such flashers without having to edit the script of every table. Toxie (a member of the VPX coding team) was previously looking at helping someone else out that had vision issues, so could also be approachable regarding seizure safety (or Vincent, current front man coding 10.8). Might be worth putting a request in at the VPX Github.

Hobbies should bring you enjoyment even if they can be frustrating at times, if there's no joy or the balance isnt right then pull the plug or do something differently.

It does sound like you are trying to overstretch your time or skillset, concentrate on what you do best I guess.

I don't really think there are standards, although some people have preferences or expectations. If there were truly standards then websites such as this would disallow lower quality releases, and they don't do that. Just because some other releases are extremely polished, doesn't mean you can't release something that may be less so. It may receive less downloads or comments, but that's life.



 

[GeorgeH]

4 hours ago, Gravy said:

Interesting comment regarding seizures, some tables have some very intense flashers. Would be nice if there was a global setting to disable such flashers without having to edit the script of every table. Toxie (a member of the VPX coding team) was previously looking at helping someone else out that had vision issues, so could also be approachable regarding seizure safety (or Vincent, current front man coding 10.8). Might be worth putting a request in at the VPX Github.

 

If you're interested in Future Pinball, you can change the option named "Hardware Lights to Use" to "0" and it will convert all the flashers on a table to bulbs that are not as bright.  It was added to reduce resources but will also serve the purpose of reducing bright lights to reduce seizures.

Edited December 11, 2023 by GeorgeH

[Gravy]

5 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

 

If you're interested in Future Pinball, you can change the option named "Hardware Lights to Use" to "0" and it will convert all the flashers on a table to bulbs that are not as bright.  It was added to reduce resources but will also serve the purpose of reducing bright lights to reduce seizures.

Great tip for those that need this.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Gravy said:

Might be worth putting a request in at the VPX Github.

Hmm I might consider that, thank you. I generally just keep my monitor brightness down quite low, which helps, but it also detracts from seeing the full details of a table (especially VPW tables which are commonly quite dark).

 

16 hours ago, Gravy said:

Hobbies should bring you enjoyment even if they can be frustrating at times, if there's no joy or the balance isnt right then pull the plug or do something differently.

VPX brings me joy when I have the balance. I don't have the balance right now and probably won't for a long while. That's life. Economic times are tough. And I have student loans to pay off as well. So I had to pull the plug on anything that wasn't earning me money (VPX was the first to go unfortunately not only because it doesn't earn money but because it's against the Terms to earn money in any way). Hopefully in the future, things will improve. But so long as I have a financial need, VPX is going to be one of the first hobbies I pull since it can't possibly help me out in any way.

 

16 hours ago, Gravy said:

It does sound like you are trying to overstretch your time or skillset, concentrate on what you do best I guess.

Actually I was trying to do the opposite. I wanted to confine to just what I do best: scripting / game play etc. But unfortunately, that wouldn't work out because you can't expect anyone to do anything for you especially in a volunteer hobby like VPX. So the expectation exists for you to spend your own time learning all these new skills if you want to make your own table (that at least meets today's standards). I just can't do that. The expectations are too high for something that is a volunteer hobby. The amount of time and effort necessary to pull off a decent table in VPX is similar to a paid game developer. I literally can't afford to undervalue myself by continuing to work on Wallden for free and being expected to spend many hours learning new skills I would never use outside of table development. But there's no other choice given the Terms. I wish it wasn't like that. I genuinely do enjoy building tables. But it's not economical anymore for someone like me fresh out of college with pending debt to pay off.

 

11 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

If you're interested in Future Pinball, you can change the option named "Hardware Lights to Use" to "0"

Oh yeah, I forgot about that, haha. I don't use Future Pinball. Before FizX, it was because of the terrible physics. Now, it's just because it's not that popular of a program. Maybe I should consider it though. Would you say it is less time-consuming to make a Future Pinball table with BAM + FizX than it would making a VPX table with VPW standards (nFozzy / Fleep / Blender Toolkit / Light mapping / PUP pack or FlexDMD)?

[xenonph]

What is next?

Are you going to get rid of all of your friends, because they are not economically viable?

I mean who has the time to spend with friends when you have all of this debt hanging over you? (Specially the friends who always want to borrow something!)

Maybe get rid of your vehicle, because it is not paying you to drive it to the store?

Also you may want to get rid of any gaming systems you have, as they don't pay you to play them.

Forget about going to grandma's house and helping her with the garden. She is not going to pay you either.

 

There are just some things in life, that you will never get paid for.

A hobby is something you do, for the love of doing it. Not for the love of money.

That is the reason why this communities tables and such, far exceed in quality, those made for money by all of these different companies.

One is done for the love of pinball, and the others are done for money.

It is a huge difference, that can be plainly seen.

 

I hope things work out for you in the end.

You do seem like you have a passion for this hobby, so hopefully one day, you will be able to finish your work on your table.

Until then, I hope you accomplish whatever you are trying to do, so once again, VP will be economically viable to you.

 

Carry on.

[GeorgeH]

11 hours ago, Arelyel said:

Hmm I might consider that, thank you. I generally just keep my monitor brightness down quite low, which helps, but it also detracts from seeing the full details of a table (especially VPW tables which are commonly quite dark).

 

VPX brings me joy when I have the balance. I don't have the balance right now and probably won't for a long while. That's life. Economic times are tough. And I have student loans to pay off as well. So I had to pull the plug on anything that wasn't earning me money (VPX was the first to go unfortunately not only because it doesn't earn money but because it's against the Terms to earn money in any way). Hopefully in the future, things will improve. But so long as I have a financial need, VPX is going to be one of the first hobbies I pull since it can't possibly help me out in any way.

 

Actually I was trying to do the opposite. I wanted to confine to just what I do best: scripting / game play etc. But unfortunately, that wouldn't work out because you can't expect anyone to do anything for you especially in a volunteer hobby like VPX. So the expectation exists for you to spend your own time learning all these new skills if you want to make your own table (that at least meets today's standards). I just can't do that. The expectations are too high for something that is a volunteer hobby. The amount of time and effort necessary to pull off a decent table in VPX is similar to a paid game developer. I literally can't afford to undervalue myself by continuing to work on Wallden for free and being expected to spend many hours learning new skills I would never use outside of table development. But there's no other choice given the Terms. I wish it wasn't like that. I genuinely do enjoy building tables. But it's not economical anymore for someone like me fresh out of college with pending debt to pay off.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about that, haha. I don't use Future Pinball. Before FizX, it was because of the terrible physics. Now, it's just because it's not that popular of a program. Maybe I should consider it though. Would you say it is less time-consuming to make a Future Pinball table with BAM + FizX than it would making a VPX table with VPW standards (nFozzy / Fleep / Blender Toolkit / Light mapping / PUP pack or FlexDMD)?

 

I don't have any experience with changing VP tables but my guess is probably no.  However, you should try TerryRed's tables which have Fleep SSF sound, PUP and I don't even know what some of some of the stuff he does is.  He calls it PinEvent and just posted updates to about a dozen tables.  

[unclewilly]

To make vpw quality tables and use the toolkit takes a lot of time and blender experience.  That's why they have a big team of people working on all the tables.  The toolkit alone is a beast to learn,  especially if you are completely inexperienced with blender as I am.

It's more a matter of enjoyment or not.

I know when I make a table it will pale in comparison with a vpw equivalent as I can't do the lightmapping or texture baking.  But I enjoy mak8ng tables so I do.   I work 60 to 65 hours a week at my day job and 20 to 30 at a part time job but everyone needs a break from working.  You just need to find the thing that makes you happy and fulfilled.   If your fulfilled no matter how much time it takes you'll be happy with your outcome.

I mean I've been working on blackout for 4 months now, going the vpw route with nfozzy and fleep and all of roths tricks for targets and what not and that part is fairly easy once you get the concept down It's mostly cut and paste and making collections.  I spend most of my time trying to get all the baking and lightmapping without actually using the toolkit as I can't seem to figure it out.

So find your balance and enjoy the little free time you have.  If vp isn't fulfilling find something that is.  I was fed up with vp and drama in the community for a long time so I found building and setting up thousands of games for an arcade cabinet was more fulfilling.  So I spent 3 years with that and now I'm back.

Just do what makes you smile

[TerryRed]

The level of work needed for any original table is the same on both FP and VP. Its many months (can be years) of work. Original tables are usually 90% the work from one creator.

 

There are no quick solutions. Even for those who know what they are doing (and it took us years to get to that point). I tell everyone the same thing. If you want to create your own tables, you gotta buckle in and give up a lot your own time to learn how to make it happen.

 

If you have expectations that others will help make it happen for you, you will probably be disappointed.

 

Most originals not based on any IP that are made on VP or FP, tend to be made mostly by one guy such as Shiva, Brendan Bailey, Steve Paradis, etc. Some are made by a Team of a few people like Three Angels from Blindmankind.

 

I've gotten help over the years... but mostly by looking at examples or tutorials posted by others, or by looking at other tables and their code, etc. On rare occasion I would ask for help if I couldn't figure something out, or wanted to try something not done before. Sometimes I would get help... sometimes not. What I could do even 2 years ago is very different than today. It happened because I love what I do, and wanted to learn how to do as much myself as I can. So I started small and worked my way up from there.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by TerryRed

[bord]

On 12/12/2023 at 7:55 AM, unclewilly said:

I mean I've been working on blackout for 4 months now, going the vpw route with nfozzy and fleep and all of roths tricks for targets and what not and that part is fairly easy once you get the concept down It's mostly cut and paste and making collections.  I spend most of my time trying to get all the baking and lightmapping without actually using the toolkit as I can't seem to figure it out.

 

@unclewilly if you're working on Blackout you're welcome to any of the art assets @Schlabber34 and I used for his project. All scanned stuff so really accurate.

[Guest]

On 12/11/2023 at 11:47 PM, GeorgeH said:

 

I don't have any experience with changing VP tables but my guess is probably no.  However, you should try TerryRed's tables which have Fleep SSF sound, PUP and I don't even know what some of some of the stuff he does is.  He calls it PinEvent and just posted updates to about a dozen tables.  

I've checked out a few of them already; they're amazing tables. And it's very impressive what can be done in FP + BAM now. PinEvent is not something others can use on their own tables though TMK; it is just something Terry uses on his tables. BAM / FizX / Fleep / PUP can, though.

 

On 12/12/2023 at 9:06 AM, TerryRed said:

If you want to create your own tables, you gotta buckle in and give up a lot your own time to learn how to make it happen.

 

If you have expectations that others will help make it happen for you, you will probably be disappointed.

This is the problem I have encountered. I went in expecting I would spend a few years to complete the table and that I would have to do a large majority of the work. Unfortunately, even though I expected to do a large majority of the work, the amount I expected was still short of reality. Furthermore, as time went on, it got harder and harder to keep working on the project. The economy keeps tanking, which means I need to take more time to work (which therefore also requires more time for relaxing so I have the energy to work). And the ETA for the table, if I were to continue working on it, kept growing substantially. By the time I decided to pull the plug, I've estimated it wouldn't be done for at least 10 years at my current pace. And I still believe that would be the case.

 

It's not even nFozzy or etc that's taking so long. I managed to get those incorporated within a few months. I think I took on too much. I was trying to make a table and a JP DMD and a PUP pack and Scorbit and light sequences / intros / outtros and so on... plus managing sounds, art (well, at least temporary AI art), and music... plus making new script routines that others could also use in their tables... at the same time. It became more of a chore than a hobby. Perhaps, when I resume the hobby, I should significantly strip back.

 

On 12/12/2023 at 8:55 AM, unclewilly said:

I work 60 to 65 hours a week at my day job and 20 to 30 at a part time job but everyone needs a break from working.

...how? lol. That would be extremely unrealistic for someone like me.

 

Sorry @xenonph I just now noticed you replied as well. I have a strict 12 AM cutoff and it's 11:59 now so I'll reply tomorrow.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Arelyel

[unclewilly]

16 hours ago, bord said:

 

@unclewilly if you're working on Blackout you're welcome to any of the art assets @Schlabber34 and I used for his project. All scanned stuff so really accurate.

That would be great as I'm using the redraw from vpf and it doesnt seem very accurate.

Maybe you could check it out for me once I'm done with the physics as I feel like I did something wrong with the nfozzy flippers.  Still applying the rest of the physics so maybe that will make things feel more correct.

 

[bord]

1 hour ago, unclewilly said:

That would be great as I'm using the redraw from vpf and it doesnt seem very accurate.

Maybe you could check it out for me once I'm done with the physics as I feel like I did something wrong with the nfozzy flippers.  Still applying the rest of the physics so maybe that will make things feel more correct.

 

Sounds good. Sent you a link on Discord.

[GeorgeH]

On 12/11/2023 at 10:45 AM, Arelyel said:

Oh yeah, I forgot about that, haha. I don't use Future Pinball. Before FizX, it was because of the terrible physics. Now, it's just because it's not that popular of a program. Maybe I should consider it though. Would you say it is less time-consuming to make a Future Pinball table with BAM + FizX than it would making a VPX table with VPW standards (nFozzy / Fleep / Blender Toolkit / Light mapping / PUP pack or FlexDMD)?

 

I got several likes on my last comment so I thought I would expand on my answer a bit.  Like I said, I know nothing about developing VP tables.  I have looked at the script in the past and it appears to have some similarities to FP but it is is different but I have no idea what it takes to set one up with a ROM.  It would seem to require less coding but I really don't know.  If you are just going to add FizX to an FP table and do nothing else, it would probably take less time than adding your VPW standard stuff.  However, I don't really think that this is a fair comparison.  I am not aware of anyone that just adds FizX to an FP table and does nothing else. 

 

As far as FP goes, FizX has taken a long time to develop but it is set up so it is in modular form not and doesn't take as much time to add as it once did.  The updates to tables I have done take varying amounts of time.  I tend to spend less time on original tables because they are not as popular.  I recently published a new version of the Hungry Dead.  I had done a couple of previous updates on it in the past so I didn't have as much to do this time.  The things that took the most time are adding FizX Lite, adding an attract mode with light sequencer and music and adding an easy play mode so kids could play it more easily.  You can check the posting for a list of other things I added.  I spent about 1 month on it.  I also updated Road Runner which took about 2 or 3 months.  In comparison, Gimli and I are finally almost finished updating Avatar which has taken us a little bit longer than one year to develop.  It has 21,000 lines of code on it.  We spent quite a bit of time developing 3 tweakers which allow the end user to adjust more than 50 parameters used on the table that can be adjusted and saved while playing a game.  There are tweakers for  Game Options, Lighting and FizX settings.  I spent a huge amount of time on the lighting and Gimli spent a lot of time adding animations.  We both worked on the tweakers. 

 

In conclusion, I can say I take the same degree of care working on a table that takes me one month to complete as opposed to one that takes me a full year.  I do have a check list of changes that has 23 items on it that I work through on a full mod.  I also look through the table and find weak areas that I also address. 

[merlinrtp]

Arelyel

I hate to hear of the community losing someone of your talent. I have only been a member of the community for a couple years but feel I am already making decent contributions and enjoying it (mostly-lol) along the way. When I first started I was not aware of the forums/discord any social sites for that matter other than JPsalas messages on vpforum, google, and the limited documentation out there. This made it frustration. I  would briefly like to share my path which I believe turned out to be a good method for progressing. but before I do that I would very much enjoy working with you on any project even Saving Walden if you would accept my offer.

 

My Path:

While I learned some programming languages in college and used then a little at work, I would not consider myself a software engineer or even a programmer I can get by that is about it.

 

Project #1

NFL Stern PuP Packs: The first foray into VPIN was to use Hwawkeyez88 default pup pack to make a Buffalo bills version of his pack, He was super encouraging and helpful. This gave me some exposure into how pup framework worked as a whole. 

I then went on to do a couple other terms and learn along the way, these went much faster as I understood the template and became more familiar with the tools (video editing, audio editing, FFMPEG, pup capture, pup files and each's purpose)

 

Project #2

Black Belt: I enjoyed this game but found it incredibly unforgiving and super difficult. I knew nothing about table script but knew certain things could be done ( know I know just about anything can be done) I really wanted a trust post so I looked at another table and figured out how to copy the table elements over ( I did not yet know how to make them ). I then decided to change the Outlane gates as I felt they were way to short and learned about timers and how to implement those. I then extended the ball saver time and reduced the initial ball release as it would send it around the orbit so fast even if you were paying attention it would drain 50% of the time as I could not react in time.

I though to myself this table would be better if it had multiball..  This was not a great idea as it's is a ROM based table but I did it anyway and it works pretty well. With that I modified the lighting to bring in some more color than orange/white lights. And finally did a full pup pack for the table in the theme of Bruce Lee. I did 98% of this table on my own with Team Tuga doing the pup overlays for me as I am not great with png art.. This took me a couple months to do all this.. Granted I have much more time to work on this stuff than you.

 

Project #3

Thundercats: Dukes of Hazard had just come out and I wanted to collaborate with someone who could do art so I hit up CapNClaw to see if he wanted to do a table together plan was I do the scripting, pup pack , videos and audio and he does the art. So off we went, we agreed that Thundercats would be a cool theme for a table, I already received approval form JP to use Diablo as a donor table. I looked at the existing table rules and tried to apply my ruleset to it as closely as possible to minimize how much code I had to change. I learned about flexDMD, ultraDMD and a ton about table scripting and how to modify a ROM-less table which I much prefer now... I converted the table to nFozzy, Fleep , then went back to BlackBelt and converted that table as well. I worked like a mad man on this one and had it released in less than 1 month,, It probably took me around 3-4 80 hours weeks, so about 300 hours plus CapnClaws time on the playfield and topper videos.

 

Project #4

Darkest Dungeon:  At this point I had learned about the discord groups and saw there was a WIP for Darkest Dungeon - one of my favorite PC games. I wanted in !!! I hit up H3rbskix only to find out he had put it on hold as he had bit off way more than he realized being it was his first project. He received some help from ppl but as you know those littles bits are only a very small part to the grand overwhelming scheme of all that needs to be done. So people had converted the table to nFozzy and added the pupDMD framework for him, Oqqsan added some lighting but all the modes and ruleset was just a couple of ideas at that time. I pounced on the table and quickly discussed the ruleset with H3rbskix and we were off to the races, the table went from 7000 lines to 14000 to 21000 to eventually 23000 lines of code as the rulset got deeper and deeper. Once the table got to about 80-85% we put it on the VPW test channel and some folks stepped up to provide great updates Oqqsam redid the inserts  and put the UPF & created metal ramps in blender for us to match the theme, and helped me with some of the more confusing bits of code along the way. Astro redid gave the playfield art a complete overhaul,  Joe Picaso gave me the models for the table and designed the wooden ramps. My point is people are far more inclined to share their time once they see a viable table.. There are so many tables that get started but never finished. Most people value their time and while they love working in the community they want their time spent to be on producing something the community gets to use. You helped me build some fire torches which I ultimately wasn't able to use as thy didn't mesh with the rest of the table as it had changed so much but I very much appreciated that.   What you may not know is that your Adv. Que. Mgnt is a GODSEND I freaking love that code... I was running into a couple challenges between vpmtimers and triggerscripts and the solution was to use your queue mgnt code.....Its super simple to use yet flexible and powerful. I am going back to my other tables now to add it as vpmtimers make me nervous now after what I have seen happen when it runs out of queue depth and starts dropping calls.. Namely kickouts !!!

 

Again I would enjoy working with you and have lots of time that I can spare to work on a project with you even collaboration, here are my skillsets

Table Code -- pretty good at this point

Table element interactions -- pretty good

pup pack including pupdmd - very good

video editing - can do basic edits/optimization

audio editing - can do basic edits/optimization

art -suck

blender - have not learned yet

3d models - can acquire/use existing models and  map textures, but often rely on Joe Picaso bribes !!

[Guest]

On 12/11/2023 at 4:17 PM, xenonph said:

Are you going to get rid of all of your friends, because they are not economically viable

No. Just like with VP, I'm not "getting rid" of it. I'm taking a break. I'm leaving / have left, but I don't plan for it to be permanent. I just don't know when I'll be back given my situation, and it could be a long time depending on how things play out. Same goes for my friends. Work has to come first sometimes, so I will postpone visiting them when I must. It doesn't mean I'm not their friend. It just means survival is more important.  I did, however, originally plan to completely toss Saving Wallden. I'm re-considering how I might be able to still pull off making the table, or at the very least getting what I have now to a playable state and putting up as an unfinished table. If I opt for the former, I need to pull back heavily on my original goals. I can't make a decision though until I first stabilize my financial situation.

 

 

A lot of the things you mentioned, I know you were being sarcastic, but I don't have a car (can't drive due to seizures), don't have a game console (all I have is my PC but I spend a vast majority of my time working rather than gaming), Grandma passed away sadly, and I still have friends but they know work comes first sometimes.

 

On 12/11/2023 at 4:17 PM, xenonph said:

There are just some things in life, that you will never get paid for.

That's true. And I am fine with that. It is good that we don't do everything expecting payment. However, as I mentioned, my financial situation is critical at the moment. Therefore, these things must take a back burner to things I do get paid for because money / more work is what will stabilize my situation. Once that is stabilized, then I can return to doing things that I don't get paid for, assuming I have the time and resources to do so. I'm making progress, but I'm not there yet. And it may be at least a few more months, but probably longer, until I'm there, especially with having to pay back loans from college.

 

On 12/11/2023 at 4:17 PM, xenonph said:

I hope things work out for you in the end.

You do seem like you have a passion for this hobby, so hopefully one day, you will be able to finish your work on your table.

Until then, I hope you accomplish whatever you are trying to do, so once again, VP will be economically viable to you.

I appreciate it. I do have a passion for VP. I'm just not in as stable of a situation as most, and therefore cannot participate to the same level or be as consistent / reliable. So things like this happen. This is the second time it's happened and probably not the last.

 

@merlinrtp your offer is a godsend. I tentatively accept it. Right now, I'm still considered on a leave of absence from VP due to my finances. However, I'm in the process of getting more work / clients and should hopefully stabilize out in a few months. Once I can commit again to the VP community, hopefully by mid 2024, I"ll see what to do about Saving Wallden. Maybe I could first use some help on reorganizing the development goals and path for the table. I think I was trying to shoot directly for the sun when I should have been asteroid-hopping, if you know what I mean: focusing on one or two things at a time instead of trying to build everything at once. I was following Darkest Dungeon behind the scenes. I haven't been able to try it yet but it looks like an amazing table. And I'm really glad the queue system has helped you out a lot. It's heavily being used in Wallden too.

 

If you'd like, I'll send you Saving Wallden in its current state and you can take a look at it at your leisure while I'm getting my situation in order. Or I can try putting up for download as previously suggested. I'm not so sure I'd want to do that though since right now I can't work on its development until I have my ducks in order.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Arelyel