Table modding rules & guidelines discussion

[Dazz]

7 minutes ago, bigus1 said:

This whole idea that most or even many authors are against modding is a myth. The most common reply I've gotten is "Go for it Dude, mod my stuff, I'm done building anyway". I've received friendly permissions even from authors that you guys think hate me. Starlion challenged you all in another thread to prove he'd done wrong with permissions, and got crickets. I can confirm that he asked me for permission, even though I didn't demand it.

What I've concluded is that all I need to do is write "this is a rebuilt of" at the start and don't mention the M word and I'd be welcomed, with open arms, as the author. And I don't even need to ask. Well that's how it works here for at least some people.  I'm upfront about what I'm doing and not pretending that I made shit myself. And in my experience, the only people that give a stuff about the details are the ones that want to pick it to pieces so they can complain.  Authors aren't some infallible Superbeings that can do no wrong, and I find them to be mostly very humble. It's the forum jockeys that put them up on pedestals and create the aura. But who's going to complain about being idolized? Some think they're special but mostly they seem to have tatt's attitude of freely sharing, humility and giving without conditions. Anyway, bitch about me all you want, but I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing because I enjoy it, and my message quota keeps filling with kind words from others that enjoy it too.

@bigus1 Good to see you here!  I use to enjoy your builds, but it's been a while since I've played one... I don't even visit VPF anymore since my ban and its garbage talking owner. I have to admit that I haven't seen any of your most recent builds, so I don't know what's all mentioned on them.

You are correct... For the most part; most authors are fine with modding.  As long as the modder took time and asked them in the first place; usually that is all that's needed.  However, there are some out there that request that their releases to not be modded upfront, but people still do anyway. 

 

Again, this is just an open discussion on modding and I value everyones opinions.  We need an overhaul and be more forward thinking when it comes to this aspect of the hobby.

 

This is where things become dicey and confusing...  

 I'm just curious as to what goes into a "rebuild"... You are one of the more famous modders around, so your opinions are valuable.  When you state... "all I need to do is write "this is a rebuilt of"".  This obviously doesn't work as this has still been an issue in the past on VPF.  There are several authors here and in our Discord that have voiced their opinions about it as well.  Surely you didn't start with a completely blank VP playfield, with absolutely no script but the basics.  What exactly did you re-build? Did you take components off of the original, then paste into your "re-build"?  Did you completely re-write the script?  Re-draw graphics/playfield? Did you re-record sounds?  What did you re-use from the original?  Graphics? 3d models?

I am all for modding, or remixing, of tables.  Modding is a necessary entry point for new authors to help learn how things work, but what exactly should count as a "remix"?  Simply making small minor modifications?  Completely overhauling of a primary system on the game?  Graphic updates?  Changing a ball graphic?

[tatt]

See!  Now we are getting somewhere. We should let star lion come back. And al stop being mr pissy pants and be caring helping friends like we used to be 

[tatt]

Bigus1. Thank you!  This has been my point.  Seems the ones whining aren’t even the ones actually creating!   So why are we catering to their feelings.  We should be polishing all these that we have now. Finish fixing the little things. So when it’s ported to unity it’s all updated and ready;). But some people care more about likes then the community. If we were all like that a few years ago that huge growth spurt would not have happened. As our egos wouldn’t have let us grow

[Dazz]

42 minutes ago, tatt said:

Bigus1. Thank you!  This has been my point.  Seems the ones whining aren’t even the ones actually creating!   So why are we catering to their feelings.  We should be polishing all these that we have now. Finish fixing the little things. So when it’s ported to unity it’s all updated and ready;). But some people care more about likes then the community. If we were all like that a few years ago that huge growth spurt would not have happened. As our egos wouldn’t have let us grow

Plain and simple...  It's not about likes, but respect amongst creators. 

Having credits on the post and in the scripting shows and gives respect to the people that come before you...  Providing the link to the exact download that was used as the basis of your mod would be nice as well.  People are taking the time to mod existing games, but not willing to take a second and give credit where credit is due.  People, including myself, like to know what version of the table was used as the basis for a modification and who was the original author.  I personally like to compare the original to the modded versions.  We like to know exactly what changes the modder made to the original release.  

[tatt]

i for one say we let the whiners do as they always do.  whine.  and we just stop kicking out all our good caring guys. over it other assholes desicion to sell things.  or steal.  ill tell you a private story that lost me a good friend.  we were one year into the popperartist association and one guy quit.  he told a member that he felt out of his league and was taking his stuff cause he wasnt as good as everyone else.  i was aproached and told we had to catre to his feelings. so people wouldnt leave.  my reponse was... fuck his feelings.  tell him to grow up amd learn we offer to help.  not hold hands."  them opeckie reminded me that "he" held my hand through learning vpx!  i barked at him and lost the greatest of friends that day.  he has never forgave me and told me to be a better person.  and he was right.  

  but this all proves my point to him.  

  take loey B.  this kid joind and tried so hard.  he didnt know shit about art, compisiotion, and photoshop even.  but he dabled and had no ego. and worked harder than anyone else.  he asked for advice. took criticizmn well.  look at him now!  atleast half of all of your shit is his art!.  yet he doesnt even speak up nor ask for likes.  instead when you ask him his day.  its about his puppy and his classes. or being overwhellmed trying to help every person that asks.  boom  growth.  he is now a beast and we love him dearly for his contribution.  imagin if he gave up crying he couldnt keep up!

[tatt]

bro one in peticular quit...saying.."i got 900 doownloads and 8 likes.  im taking my toys and going home."  true stuff.  we are all in this and should respect others. which is why i buult the stuff im about to release soon. and it will show whos credits like a fan page:)  ive been shunned on the idea for 4 years.  now its almost done.  and had i had help we wouldnt be dealing with this as all would be obvious.  ps.  i plan on putting a QR code linked to those pages on all my mods.  with no credit to me as usuall  but all that have contributed and where.  all artists and devs will be alowed to have their own fan page that links into the "popperportal" system im building for your machines.  this is a library of content and resorces.  not tables and packs.  anyone that wants to help speed this up or opt their credits out can message me.  but there needs to be a beautiful front end for credits!.  so ive been doping that for over a year on my own for you guys.  this will be an addon for pinuppopper.  not an upgrade.  i thank david for all he has done for this community with that front end.  dude writes code like most read books.  and thats why popper was so slow to get pretty in the back end.  left brained genuises are not into flash.  they prefer it to be gone and prefer a library and plain code.  its easier.  most of us need pretty pictures in our books.  and if you are right brained like me your all pretty pics and no code:)  when we were flooding him with ideas in the beginning. he listened and then moved in non pretty ways.  but he was right.  make it clean function first.  and now he is slowly pollishing it!  

im so aprecialtive that i seen many where pretending to be him.  and i bought pinuppopper.com with my own money and pointed to all things david.  and wne he decides he wants control of it.  its his.  as he did all this for that. and bought it for him.  til then it will always be a landing page for pointing to all things and places to help those not in groups.  

 some guys think we need to hid this all to keep out the pirates.  but by doing that you guve them strength.  make it easy and open and fun like david did with baller installer and all dont need help:)  imagin anyof you now that had to install vpx the first year.  so complicated was it!   

love, share, give, and respect.  and for god sakes be kind to one another.  again anything i have ever been involved with or drawn is free and do whay you will  make it better.

  ps  again im autistic and cant spell well so cut me slack on things bearly making sense

[tatt]

7 hours ago, Dazz said:

@tattWhat you are talking about here and a full modded release are slightly different.  Going back to the VERY beginning of this hobby.... EVERY single table is built off of snippits that someone else created.  Some code sinppits go back so long that the original credits have been long long lost.  Ball rolling, lighting, physics, etc...  Technically, anyone that's using any of the pieces you mentioned above should keep the credits of those pieces in the script.  If someone uses Freezys script for something; Freezy should have credit in the script for that snippit of code.  This way anyone that mods that table, going forward, they know that Freezys script was used.  Some components are hard to credit as they have slowly become part of the initial VP package.  Usually people created these parts for the better of the hobby and don't ask for any credits in return.

What I’m saying is I’m one of those guys that has been in the dark helping since almost the beginning of vpx9. And was lol futurepinball before that. But didn’t contribute before that. So these people claiming rights because of time modding.  Don’t have rights as they are modding the bones of many.  But they need to thank and allow credit for those that paved the way.  That’s what dux was trying to do with his spreadsheet. Is make it easy to find and know what’s what.  Now it’s our job to put that as the content. And the tables and stuff as the resouce behind it.  Atleast that my goal with my site.  Ps pinuppopper.com was hacked and is partiall broken but the links are right and just going to the page only monetizes for David’s and John’s YouTube channels as the videos play from there through my site.  Again full time dad. And homeschool for 4 years.  Plus tattoo 8-10 hours a day.  I give what I can when I can.  And likes and credit mean nothing to me as I’ve got 3000 plus peace’s of art I’ve been patted for over the years.  My ego is not there at all.  But my temperament needs work I agree

[tatt]

love you guys.  ill say this in closing.  as for me.. i cannot and will not be bullied by people that think they run stuff.  ive always stood up.  loud and proud from my community.  and i wont keep all my great work to myself anymore.  many have taught me to make these amazing.  and i willnot disrespect their effort by hording them just cause i dont have time to find and ask for permission i dont need.  so soon ill start posting my full modded kits one m=by one.  daz and i will hopefully find a way where people can take credit for it as i want none.  it was my time.  it wos others dream and code.  i draw and use stuff smart people make for me.  but i claim no right.  but the first two games i release youll fast see why i need to do this.  wait till you see the dmds and stuff that is really out there that youve never seen on a forum.  but i didnt make it.  i contributed and was shared properly for it.  some think only devs and modders should get some stuff.  but in truth. assid from wips that have yet to be realeased.  once its released have fun.  this is for fun not show.  i dont care who likes me.  im not gonna share game packs.  but all matching media and fully modded packs will be with each table.  all volumes adjusted and no more slam in volume between content.  ive worked to make most setups very unified so things match throughout the game.  again all credits will me given to the people that built the brick for all invoved before me.  and ill try to include links to yall.  and for sayng this i got banned from discord.  but i own my own sites.  i dont have to be nor host here.  im here cause i love yall and will stand against the cronie back patting fassion show.  im 50 not time for all that im ugly, loud and boaring.  making tables will never make me look cool!

[tatt]

1 hour ago, Dazz said:

Plain and simple...  It's not about likes, but respect amongst creators. 

Having credits on the post and in the scripting shows and gives respect to the people that come before you...  Providing the link to the exact download that was used as the basis of your mod would be nice as well.  People are taking the time to mod existing games, but not willing to take a second and give credit where credit is due.  People, including myself, like to know what version of the table was used as the basis for a modification and who was the original author.  I personally like to compare the original to the modded versions.  We like to know exactly what changes the modder made to the original release.  

you just described what popperportal is:)  id love your help making it amazing.  im building dashboards and an app.  and will all be free to the community.  and simpliy ties all the devsand contruiutoes and instructions and database and legit sites into one dash that links to your machine.  and a html dash for your machine. with a best of best.  qr codes to tie it all together.  your indoubt scan the take a pic of the machine  done  alls right there:)  been on it for over a year.  begged for 4  and so far om proud

Edited June 29, 2021 by tatt

[Wildman]

   Holy Fuck... gonna take some time to soak this shit up ... 

[Dazz]

26 minutes ago, tatt said:

you just described what popperportal is:)  id love your help making it amazing.  im building dashboards and an app.  and will all be free to the community.  and simpliy ties all the devsand contruiutoes and instructions and database and legit sites into one dash that links to your machine.  and a html dash for your machine. with a best of best.  qr codes to tie it all together.  your indoubt scan the take a pic of the machine  done  alls right there:)  been on it for over a year.  begged for 4  and so far om proud

I'm sorry, but I'm not helping build anything else.  VPU is this site and I run this site for the community. 

I honestly think you should drop anything "popper" related...  Come up with names that haven't already been coined by the owner of the software, @NailBuster.  You don't own the rights to anything "popper" and should leave the domains to the creator of that software.  This is why people are upset with your antics. 

[tatt]

i fully feel your statement.  but again.  its a "portal" to popper.  and i own it and use it for good purpose.  anyone that dont like it i def dont care.  now pinuppopper.  i bought that for david so noone elese could.  if pepople dont see that. then i can just go play in my own field.  but id rather be here standing for the real devs in all this.  not the ones crying content when everysingle thing they put ing is stolen from someone some where.  use use freely  mod  change have fun.  dont take credit for others work.  popper portal is not using pinuppopper.  and for the record  i helped build oinuppopopper will all befoe even john joined us!.  im just not as smart as he is.  many of us are not.  you dont know the hundreds of hours we all put in calling each other talking all night on ideas that became reality.  i def dont care about the butthurt feelres out there.  im me  i do me  i spread love and give freely.  period.

[tatt]

further more. if i am requested to lose all things "Popper" related when i helped build this playground with these guys.  then all these guys should have to drop their "popper" youtube channels where they get their liks and yourtube money and affialiate links.  im not against them doing that cause it helps me and all you learn.  im helping all find with mine and ive been making it for 4 years.  david shot it down and told me to go for it.  now everyone keeps yelling at me about what "david" says.  david has said nothing to me. but go ahead.  and i have that message from 4 years ago if you need to know.  again i dont brag or look for likes and money.  i make 100$ an houra a 30 year pro tattoo artists  this is my hobby for my son.  so ill d what i do.  hope all sees my intent is not the assholes selling and stealing!

[tatt]

14 minutes ago, Dazz said:

I'm sorry, but I'm not helping build anything else.  VPU is this site and I run this site for the community. 

I honestly think you should drop anything "popper" related...  Come up with names that haven't already been coined by the owner of the software, @NailBuster.  You don't own the rights to anything "popper" and should leave the domains to the creator of that software.  This is why people are upset with your antics. 

as for helping.  i was talking about me helping you bring that dream to your site!  as i dont care about sites.  i care about the comminity bro

[tatt]

hell even you bro took VP added universe. when there was VPForums and VPinball and VP....  see you dont own vp.  so shuld take that down?  see how rediculous this is?  Popper stands for Pop up.  meaning videos poppup.  pinup stands for the bling.   i pointed pinuppopper to all things DAvid as a fan page cause i respect and support wht he is doing.  his license says "free to mod, use and share as long as you credit him.  yet i still point all to him and all links are his.  cause i do that. and can.  and will.  popperportal is a portal to a great program called pinuppoppe. and i guarentee whne i do release it youll wanna use it!  and if you guys boot me for standing up to all this. i bet you lose allot of devs. as many more than you think respect me as ive earned it and i give it!.  i like it here and dont wanna complain.  but you gotta stand for the things you believe in.

PS. your nes social network in here is amazing!  great job and i personall thank you.  your is what i wanted mine to be without the vip or no money guys involved just free fun.  but its pricey  i got 2000 into all my sites and stuff designing so far.  so you know a pwa can turn yoursite into an app:)

all love

[tatt]

let me show you guys some hypocracy.  mr frenchy yells at people for sharing!  warns peole like he is their dad.  says its not yours we are against it.  then he is over on vpdb.io thinking them for this amazing database that thanks creator. but is all posted by someone that didnt do it.   but i think its a good thing they are sharing.  what if you die. and noone is here to continue the site?  see why hording in one place is bad.  im honest.   on your site there is a color dmd for theatre of magic.  what if i told you there was already done a full color amazing one thats sitting in the shadows for years?  and amazing one.  and hundres of others and super amazing media and tables. modded by crews that dont even talk or release cause they dont wanna be treated like starlord? and others?  you guys got people afraid to stand!  im not afraid ata ll. and my bitch is just

[tatt]

Once again I’ll say. I owned pinuppopper artist association!  Me.  I invited David to it and I invited al the main members on my dream to make David’s program like it is today. I had the first “tower machine begging for 20 more popper windows.”  And many more things.  Every member of that group paid this forward. Everyone of these old school devs paved this way.  Guys coming in the last 5 years making YouTube videos and controlling while secretly sharing in the background is done as far as I’m concerned.  It’s not fair to the community.I don’t care if I get banned for that.  Popperportal is legally my add on. My dream my desire and even David who you all keep quoting knows that and has my phone number.  Again I’ve don’t nothing sneaky or wrong. I’m contributing majorly to a dream like the rest of my friends and others. 

[CactusDude]

14 minutes ago, tatt said:

what if you die. and noone is here to continue the site?

Personally, I think if someone dies, my first concern is not going to be Visual Pinball tables. But, you do you.

[tatt]

me too.  id be sad for the communities loss too.  i was making a point on how fast it could all disappear.

[Aubrel]

The main issue is "what is a rebuild?"

As an example I made 3 "rebuilds" recently without permission of the previous table autors (only 2 were released so far).

For BarbWire and BoneBusters I did exactly what's on their descriptions.

 

Now the question is: are these tables rebuilds or mods??

For me a "rebuild" is when you rebuild the full table from a blanc table in the editor.

For both tables above I did it but I took the playfield and the script from the previous version of these tables (just like it as been done in many or most rebuilds I saw until now)

When taking the script of an old table, the more easy way to get it working is to name the switches and some lights the same as before.

Also when taking the playfield from previous tables, most often there is no need to loose time to redraw the insert light's halos as in any case they willo be at the end just the very same as before.

Even more, I took also some primitives form others tables. (for boneBusters for example I took the primitives of the wireramp and a few other ones form the actual VPX version by hmueck, and for BarbWire I took some generic Gottlieb's ones in WaterWorld)

Of course I gave credits to the original autors when known. Even more I put the previous autors names as "autors" in the description of BoneBusters to avoid any other eventual drama (I tried to contact 32Assassin 2 times last months in vpf and discord without succes)

Unfortunately I don't know who made the playfields (they are used in most previous versions and the info is nearly lost) that's sad because this is often a very big and time consuming work to make a full playfield...

 

I think there is no need to be falsely blind and it would be only a big lost of time to don't use the nice work made by the others autors of these tables.

Even if not taken directly, of course the new autor will take an eye on how the things have been done before and will be more than inspired for the "new" ones...

 

I made also a "rebuild" of Lights Camera Action recently and I did nearly the very same as above and more than that I did the same as the previous autor on the background for desktop users....

 

By the way I have been recently accused by someone here in this thread to have modded his mod (if mine is not a rebuild, his one couldn't be called like that neither).

I did exactly what's said above and in the description and gave credits for what taken but yes, as I rebuilt this table from a blanc one in the editor, I didn't called it "mod" and didn't requested permission...

But so far the "mods" I saw are never rebuild from a blanc table (some of them are also sometime literally a poor 5min work) and so I don't think I'm so wrong with my own definition of a rebuild...

Edit: And if when taking anything from a previous versions of a table, the result should be called "mod", I think it is now nearly impossible to call any new existing reproduction a rebuild.

And that would be sad because if we have in any case to call it a mod, if  the previous autor disapears it would be nearly imposible to build again the same table without using anything from him nor anything like him.

Also even more crazy, as I took some primitives from an other table, my BarbWire table should be called a mod of WaterWorld? And WaterWorld would be a mod from which table? I used mostly the trough script of BigHouse to fix the BoneBusters one, so my BoneBusters table is now a mod of BigHouse? There would be no end...

 

So sorry for this long boring explaination but yes the limit between a "mod" and a "rebuild" should be given

 

 

Edit : Also for my part, I spent a lot of time to fix and improve the scripts of most the tables I worked on for example.

If someone wants to take one of my tables and update/mod it I would like to be asked first (except one guy, the answer will be yes).

But if someone wants for some reason rebuild the table, I really hope he will still take my updated script as a base (or at least keep my fixes) for the rebuild and the same applies for anything good enougth in my tables to be kept (no permission requested in this case, just keep credits is enough )

[Dazz]

15 hours ago, tatt said:

hell even you bro took VP added universe. when there was VPForums and VPinball and VP....  see you dont own vp. 

Evidently you don't know the difference between an Open Source project and a Non-Open Source project.

[Thalamus]

@Aubrel I think it is perfectly fine for anyone to say that they want to get asked first if someone starts from your modifications or "rebuild". It is just common sense, and also, for the guy that starts off from your work, info about where it came from is also something that should be mandatory in these cases.

 

I mentioned this in a rather angry voice for @bigus1 on vpf for BSD. I also mentioned that I wanted him to mention me, HF and 32a for Avatar, just like @tartzani did for his mod. I see now that Bigus1 rectified this over at VPF. For which I'm thankful. I don't expect getting mentioned if someone asks Tartzani to improve on his to be mentioned. But, I will be friggin annoyed if HE isn't mentioned in a mod based on what HE added.

 

Bigus1 has not asked me to improve on BSD, if he where, I might even accept - though I admit, we haven't seen eye to eye in ages. But, if he is going to work from where I started. He would have to ask ICPJuggla. Just like I had to. IF he so did, and "steals" from my mod, then I would expect and demand being mentioned.

 

This is my view of modding/rebuilding. Maybe my view alone ?! It is all about showing some respect for the guys who has come before you. If you got the time to mod a table, you've also got the time to figure out who to ask and thank/credit besides you work.

[bigus1]

I have my own version of BSD, for  which I have permission from ICPjuggla AND Dozer316 AND JPSalas and it was published way before anyone else, plus I've updated it 4 times and had 5000+ downloads. Plus I also asked for permission to re-upload, unlike anyone else, and when I do, I'll give the same credit as last time.

[tatt]

bros?  do you see where this all gets us.  yes always note who the bones are.  but modding is not about getting permission. its about credit and growth.  many broke their bones with hours on every little thing even in both your projects.  i have both of your versions on my table.  they are both amazing and unique for both them. i even have a different BG and custom puppacks for each of  them.  We needed both.  one show us how scripting can be condensed. and one shows us a few fancy tricks and polish.  buth are great.   there was recently a new congo that came out.  i didnt like the older version, so I completely revamped it.  repainted all the models and all.  its beautiful  ask joey and John who have it:)  then right when i was going tp release it and work with john and them on a new congo pupack for it.  someone put out another version.  and its not only beautiful.  but it's rescripted so much better.   so i delayed my release without saying a word so i wasnt taking away from him.  neither of us even knew the other was doing it as i told noone.  

now as for permision.  i dont take on projects at all.   i mod my machine and everything in it.  i have 600 modded tables by me.  new art new fixes from friends.  none dont  little here and there every time i play them.  it would annoy them if i kept asking and never released like ive done for almost 10 years.  but if i ever do release. they will have credit.  that forsure.  as i never take any even for my work and involvment.  cause its my fun hobby.  thats what i was trying to say.  but i seem to always come off backwards and lose friends when i mean well

hell even half the beautifl balls out there swinging in everynes face are mine in their tables:)  but man does that make me happy to say

Edited June 30, 2021 by tatt

[fluffhead35]

On 6/28/2021 at 5:05 PM, Dazz said:

I originally come up with this idea for adding DOF to existing tables if the authors chose not to do so themselves.  This method requires the user to have downloaded the original table.  

 

This is just a discussion right now... I do think patching is the way to go though. 

 

Has this been tested with VP10 as it states VP9 only, and expects files to the vpt.