Table modding rules & guidelines discussion

[tatt]

On 6/30/2021 at 3:11 AM, Aubrel said:

The main issue is "what is a rebuild?"

As an example I made 3 "rebuilds" recently without permission of the previous table autors (only 2 were released so far).

For BarbWire and BoneBusters I did exactly what's on their descriptions.

 

Now the question is: are these tables rebuilds or mods??

For me a "rebuild" is when you rebuild the full table from a blanc table in the editor.

For both tables above I did it but I took the playfield and the script from the previous version of these tables (just like it as been done in many or most rebuilds I saw until now)

When taking the script of an old table, the more easy way to get it working is to name the switches and some lights the same as before.

Also when taking the playfield from previous tables, most often there is no need to loose time to redraw the insert light's halos as in any case they willo be at the end just the very same as before.

Even more, I took also some primitives form others tables. (for boneBusters for example I took the primitives of the wireramp and a few other ones form the actual VPX version by hmueck, and for BarbWire I took some generic Gottlieb's ones in WaterWorld)

Of course I gave credits to the original autors when known. Even more I put the previous autors names as "autors" in the description of BoneBusters to avoid any other eventual drama (I tried to contact 32Assassin 2 times last months in vpf and discord without succes)

Unfortunately I don't know who made the playfields (they are used in most previous versions and the info is nearly lost) that's sad because this is often a very big and time consuming work to make a full playfield...

 

I think there is no need to be falsely blind and it would be only a big lost of time to don't use the nice work made by the others autors of these tables.

Even if not taken directly, of course the new autor will take an eye on how the things have been done before and will be more than inspired for the "new" ones...

 

I made also a "rebuild" of Lights Camera Action recently and I did nearly the very same as above and more than that I did the same as the previous autor on the background for desktop users....

 

By the way I have been recently accused by someone here in this thread to have modded his mod (if mine is not a rebuild, his one couldn't be called like that neither).

I did exactly what's said above and in the description and gave credits for what taken but yes, as I rebuilt this table from a blanc one in the editor, I didn't called it "mod" and didn't requested permission...

But so far the "mods" I saw are never rebuild from a blanc table (some of them are also sometime literally a poor 5min work) and so I don't think I'm so wrong with my own definition of a rebuild...

Edit: And if when taking anything from a previous versions of a table, the result should be called "mod", I think it is now nearly impossible to call any new existing reproduction a rebuild.

And that would be sad because if we have in any case to call it a mod, if  the previous autor disapears it would be nearly imposible to build again the same table without using anything from him nor anything like him.

Also even more crazy, as I took some primitives from an other table, my BarbWire table should be called a mod of WaterWorld? And WaterWorld would be a mod from which table? I used mostly the trough script of BigHouse to fix the BoneBusters one, so my BoneBusters table is now a mod of BigHouse? There would be no end...

 

So sorry for this long boring explaination but yes the limit between a "mod" and a "rebuild" should be given

 

 

Edit : Also for my part, I spent a lot of time to fix and improve the scripts of most the tables I worked on for example.

If someone wants to take one of my tables and update/mod it I would like to be asked first (except one guy, the answer will be yes).

But if someone wants for some reason rebuild the table, I really hope he will still take my updated script as a base (or at least keep my fixes) for the rebuild and the same applies for anything good enougth in my tables to be kept (no permission requested in this case, just keep credits is enough )

See that’s why I say we should not infringe on people modding. Def don’t let people post others work as theirown. Never.  But make them a credit and have admins test to see if it’s an upgrade. Then the best versions can be at the front. No more guess what’s new. And then people get credit.  Def a mod contributors category with credit going to the original table team and mod going to further credit?   

[bigus1]

I'm really warming to this rebuild loophole. No ominous modding rules, no need to ask permission and I can do tables with no permission to mod, because it's a rebuild. And going by the changelogs on recent "rebuilds", I only need to do a fraction of the work I normally do, I'd get no complaints plus I get to be the author and not some lowly scumbag modder.  Sweet Open the floodgates!

[tatt]

See I wouldn’t say that a mod allows for author.  I see the sketchy. But you guys control the media library. Don’t let them.  Like for instance.  Say I release my tables I’ve modded Dover the last 5-10 year. 3-5 are the good ones.  They are drastically different. Art and all. I mod lighting physics. Script updates, custom balls   many of you have seen a few of my custom balls!  All my tables have them.  All my tables have custom. Puppacks. With big extras and my layouts. With my art.   Then that have custom modded b2s. Cause I live a good old trans light!  I’ve got modded dmd. And modded dmdoverlays. Custom table art and repaint all the bumpmaps plus more cause I simply play my tables and mod them to be cooler as I get board. And I have all.  I play allot. I like pinball.  Never have I shared. Ever. Just contribute to the growth of the society. And gave my hand drawn art many time. No stealing. No copying.  Hell I even have owned my damn name for 20 years. Tattguy is my brand. My brand is me.   

but the first time I offer to share my work. I get booted yelled at and shunned.  !   Hell I’m the one that started pinuppopper artist association. Me!   I got all those great guys togther in one room. Chased them down one by one and begged them to join.  
just like terry did when he had the original dream of pinuppopper. Yes I’ve been beating his mailbox up for ten years     He’s pretty tired of my face.  But still I contribute original content. And told I can’t share cause I didn’t jump through a loop hole. See I should have been Atleast asked my intent!  I think I deserve that!   
  What I mean about the moddding section. Is people can submit a mod. It will be added to the mod link as a alt mod on the original content page;). See where I’m going.  Damn. I just spoiled part of PopperPortal;).  But again I’ll host nothing. You’ll always get from community driven sources. But PopperPortal is a beautiful library and more that I’ve been building for 3-4 years I think it was when I sent David the photos and roadmap of it. He then told me to make it an add on.  With no help I have taken all long time. But it’s almost ready. Be patient with me. Single dad here   But it will be as beautiful as its host pinuppopper. But will just be an add on interface But will give you a full library of who did what where you can find what’s what YouTube channel links. Official supported gear companies that have ratings. And ……..:)

Edited July 3, 2021 by tatt

[tatt]

52 minutes ago, bigus1 said:

I'm really warming to this rebuild loophole. No ominous modding rules, no need to ask permission and I can do tables with no permission to mod, because it's a rebuild. And going by the changelogs on recent "rebuilds", I only need to do a fraction of the work I normally do, I'd get no complaints plus I get to be the author and not some lowly scumbag modder.  Sweet Open the floodgates!

agreed with that sarcasm

Edited July 3, 2021 by tatt

[dazzadasha]

Forgive me, but has there been any tutorials on modding/changing tables. Im a dumb 50 YO roof tiler from Oz and I learnt to mod and I mod the hell out of most tables. Its pretty easy to learn how to adjust lights, physics, slap in new images etc. Maybe a lot of people have no idea they can do it themselves reasonably easily. It was daunting at first, but once you jump in its pretty straight forward. The first time I saw someone mod and release one of JPs tables I thought "How offensive to JP" then I realized Ive modded most of his tables myself (Not improved, just changed a few things to suit my prefs/monitor) but I'd never release a mod of JP's out of principle. I am however guilty of d/ling and enjoying them. Modding for personal use great fun and should be encouraged. IMO their should be a tut for mugs (like me), so people realize how accessible the tools are. Maybe then these 5 minute "lazy mod releases" that tweak lights and physics and simple things like I can do might start to thin out. I might be right off the mark too, after all I am a simple ol' roofer from OZ.

[Sixtoe]

I missed this, but I'll answer for both myself and VPW, we'd like to be asked if people can mod our tables, because basically if it's a good mod we'd like to work with the modder and roll it into the mainline release! Why mod when you can keep table parity? It's one of the reasons I build the VR rooms into the tables now with scripts, because it means you only have to have one version.

[tatt]

7 hours ago, Sixtoe said:

I missed this, but I'll answer for both myself and VPW, we'd like to be asked if people can mod our tables, because basically if it's a good mod we'd like to work with the modder and roll it into the mainline release! Why mod when you can keep table parity? It's one of the reasons I build the VR rooms into the tables now with scripts, because it means you only have to have one version.

you built them into the scripts?  how can i find out which ones and how i can take advantage of that?  I have 6 full different versions of like acdc.  love them all for different reasons.  not to mention I've partially modded almost all the over a thousand tables i have lol.  and yes im constantly modding and tweaking over the years as different script sources and stuff comes out.  put i upgrade the image files to higher rez as i see problems.  I never take claim for anything i contribute.  yet I'm fine with other doing it.  my problem is without a centralized system of resources. its hard to know what's what.  not all new mods are better.  i have had beautiful mods I've downloaded over the years that had no balls. lol  

  no my problem with me releasing my mods,  which I haven't,  is I'm not in any groups but here these days.  so chasing people down is a nightmare lol.  but if i ever do release my versions.  again ill take no credit and give all credit to those before me.  i simple create cause i cant not.  I'm a creative:)  and i love  pinball and tinkering.  

but if you saw the difference in some of the files i have compared to some of what i see available. is pretty night and day.  and not just my mods either.  i have a altcolor for many  like magic.  and damn is what i got full color amazing transitions.  and many of the ones i downloaded recently are actually downgrades from what i have had for years now:)  so i was offering to help the community when i got yelled at!

[Dazz]

Bumping this thread... We are seeing more modded tables being uploaded that have not received permission from the original creators.

I think the patching system needs to become an integral part of this hobby.  I see more pros than cons when it comes to a patching system.

Before considering uploading a mod/patch.
1. Have respect for the original authors.  Please try contacting them and let them you are working on a modification of their creation.  
2. Work with the original authors to see if they are interested in incorporating your changes into their original release.

The thing with the patch system; it still requires the original release to be used.  The creator of the patch would need to enter a required field when uploading that has a link to the original release used to create the patch.