Taking a break; disappointed by the recent conduct and events in the VP community

[ThatGamerGuy333]

On 6/1/2025 at 5:20 PM, ArelyelKrele said:

I'm not sure whom you're referring to. I'm assuming me since I brought up the concerns about staff behavior. I wasn't complaining about authoritarian moderators (mods who ban / discipline anyone for any little thing; that doesn't happen here, thankfully... although there was a mix-up at first where I thought the staff were silencing the discussion, but turns out it was because of the number of reports on that thread auto-hiding it). I was complaining about rude staff (who were insulting members). But according to Dazz, it's been addressed, so I don't really have anything more to say about it. If you weren't speaking to me however, then please disregard me. Otherwise, I'd have to disagree and say rather it's quite authoritarian to suggest those who express concerns about staff behavior be banned.

 

I'm guilty of this as well and will be making a better effort when I get back into pinball to do the same. I need to do more of my thorough reviews and critiques again since people have said they seem helpful. Sadly I've only ever done maybe 6 of them.

It's doubtful any kind of behavior will change, just the nature of these niche websites.  Admin tend to think they can act any way they want and get away with it, well cause they can.  And the other members tend to not care cause they're not the ones being talked down to.  As someone just getting into the hobby, its a bit of a shame seeing the lack of civility and basic social etiquette the admin and prominent members of the community have shown here when being called out for their behavior, and just to new members in general, but it's not surprising.  Banning users who fight back and call out the behavior is definitely authoritarian though.  Admin who berate, insult, and demean while banning anyone who does the same to them is the definition of authoritarian behavior.  

[xenonph]

1 hour ago, ThatGamerGuy333 said:

It's doubtful any kind of behavior will change, just the nature of these niche websites.  Admin tend to think they can act any way they want and get away with it, well cause they can.  And the other members tend to not care cause they're not the ones being talked down to.  As someone just getting into the hobby, its a bit of a shame seeing the lack of civility and basic social etiquette the admin and prominent members of the community have shown here when being called out for their behavior, and just to new members in general, but it's not surprising.  Banning users who fight back and call out the behavior is definitely authoritarian though.  Admin who berate, insult, and demean while banning anyone who does the same to them is the definition of authoritarian behavior.  

 

I do not think you know what you are talking about.

You joined this site 7 days ago, (Welcome to the community by the way.), so you really have no idea how this site is run, but blindly put it in category of a "Niche Website"?

This pinball community is probably the friendliest of all "Niche Websites".

This community is not like any other.

It is not like any other type of emulation or gaming site community.

 

Lack of civility and basic social etiqutte shown by Admins and prominent members?

There is no reason for Admins to change their behaviour, and nobody was banned.

Although if I personally received a disrespectful reply back to my post, like citrus made to Dazz, I would have thought really hard about banning, but even I would try to adhere to the stated site rules and stated penalties for breaking those rules.

Find one of the posts replied to Dazz here...

https://vpuniverse.com/forums/topic/13289-taking-a-break-disappointed-by-the-recent-conduct-and-events-in-the-vp-community/page/2/#findComment-89108

 

Shows everyone that @Dazz does not ban just because he can, and has the patience of a saint, even though I think the majority here wouldn't have faulted him in this case.

There is a reason Admins, and prominent members voiced their strong opinions in that thread. (Me included.)

 

Here is the situation that occurred for those who don't know this...

 

A prominent member of this community (who has been here from the start, and contributed much), seemed like they were being harrassed by another person, because they use AI art on tables.

This person had left bad reviews, and started a thread topic in forum suggesting that all table authors start disclosing if AI was used for art on table.

You don't have to be a genius to know this was targeted at 1 member in particular.

(Although I recently saw he did same to another member. who used AI on a table.)

Not sure if same person, but we had someone not long ago who actually reported tables over at Pinball Nirvana site, and the reason given for reporting the tables was AI art was used on them.

Who reports a table because it has AI art?

Do you think Admins will remove tables because of these reports about AI being used for the art on table?

Hell no. Just ticked us off.

Told this person they better quit targeting this member, and we would be watching and act promptly if any more targeting occurred.

Good way to get on bad side of Admins.

 

Admins and prominent members have opinions too.

Are they not allowed to express their opinions?

When you see someone who is seemingly making targeted attacks or berating a persons work, and then ask for everyone to disclose if AI was used in their work, you can expect this community to speak up and voice their opinions. 

 

The only thing I posted in that thread was this would be "ridiculous" to make contributors to this hobby disclose on download page if they used AI for the art.

Then the person wrote a paragraph, dismissing each point I had made.

So being curious, I clicked the name and looked up what content they had.

All negative posts. Not 1 nice one.

Again I posted basically the same thing again and said it is ridiculous.

I then added that they could just keep leaving bad reviews, but trying to force someone to disclose if AI was used

on table art is ridiculous.

I am sure others looked up the content of this person too, before posting their opinion in that thread.

Admins and members of this great community, will respond in kind, when they see a member, or members being targeted or berated, specially for a BS reason.

Basically all that was said by 2 of our greatest backglass makers and art gurus, was all of this content is free, and if you don't like it, you don't have to download it, and they are not going to be forced to disclose what programs they use to make their content.

In some cases, language is used that not everyone likes, but there is no mistaking the point they wanted to get across.

 

Some who posted in that thread, may not of realised that this author was being targeted by this person, so maybe they didn't understand why the Admins and some members were so ticked off.

Try and target or belittle anyone on any website, and see what the Admins and members do.

Then add to that, targeting a well known contributing member, who was here when this community was just starting. Even had a website called Pinball Originals back in the day.

Although I am pretty sure you would see the same heated posts from Admins, no matter the status of the member being targeted.

 

So please don't confuse or accuse Admins or members "straight and to the point" posts, with berating others, when they are just responding to the person who actually did the targeting and berating of a member.

 

Now you know.

And knowing is half the battle.

 

So hopefully you can understand why some people responded the way they did, when someone is complaining about art in a table that shows hands that only have 3 fingers instead of 5. The more I say that sentence, the more ridiculous it sounds.

Now maybe I could understand better, if the tables name was "5 Fingers of Death", and then you only find 3 fingers in table, but it still sounds petty to me.

Not worth leaving the community over this.

If any of you uploaded content to community, and someone was targeting you or your work, you would see the same responses from everyone.

Treat others like you would want to be treated.

 

Admins and contributing members do all of this work for us, in their own spare time.

Nobody gets paid for this stuff.

While you can see the work that contributing members upload and share with the community, most Admin work goes unseen.

All of those hours, days, weeks, months, and years volunteering time, that they will never get back, just to help our community.

If you think starting, running, updating , and keeping site up and running for years is easy, then you would see hundreds of Visual Pinball sites.

There are only a handful of  trustworthy VP sites left.

 

Sometimes a kind word, or a simple thanks is all that is needed to get someone motivated enough to work through their next project.

 

Make pinball, not war.

 

Carry on.

[Precise]

Peace,

 

I'm just happy to say as a person who owns a bachelors degree in dispute resolution, I'm proud you guys are trying to have a reasonable and progressive conversation about this.  This website specifically and the community in general is what you make it.  Everyone is and should be entitled to their opinion just as everyone is entitled to shoot an opinion down if it's not on point.  Much can be learned from this thread just by reading..............

Edited June 4, 2025 by PIPAllah

[stevemontuno]

10 hours ago, ThatGamerGuy333 said:

It's doubtful any kind of behavior will change, just the nature of these niche websites.  Admin tend to think they can act any way they want and get away with it, well cause they can.  And the other members tend to not care cause they're not the ones being talked down to.  As someone just getting into the hobby, its a bit of a shame seeing the lack of civility and basic social etiquette the admin and prominent members of the community have shown here when being called out for their behavior, and just to new members in general, but it's not surprising.  Banning users who fight back and call out the behavior is definitely authoritarian though.  Admin who berate, insult, and demean while banning anyone who does the same to them is the definition of authoritarian behavior.  

Your other citrus333 account wasn't banned dude ,,,, 

[Dazz]

12 hours ago, ThatGamerGuy333 said:

It's doubtful any kind of behavior will change, just the nature of these niche websites.  Admin tend to think they can act any way they want and get away with it, well cause they can.  And the other members tend to not care cause they're not the ones being talked down to.  As someone just getting into the hobby, its a bit of a shame seeing the lack of civility and basic social etiquette the admin and prominent members of the community have shown here when being called out for their behavior, and just to new members in general, but it's not surprising.  Banning users who fight back and call out the behavior is definitely authoritarian though.  Admin who berate, insult, and demean while banning anyone who does the same to them is the definition of authoritarian behavior.  

As someone just getting into the hobby... So far, you've gone about doing so in the wrong way. I'm all about showing people how things work around here and in this hobby. I don't ban for many reasons. Someone speaking their mind isn't something I'd ban anyone for.  However, as admin, I too am allowed to voice my opinion and I will speak my mind.  You can like that or not... I'm willing to give more opportunities for you to learn how this hobby works, but don't continue to push it.
 
We have received multiple reports, yes, this is the same user. I've banned several of your other usernames, including thatgamerguy333, but your Citrus account remains active currently.  If you want to continue creating new accounts, please continue... Although, I haven't banned Citrus, yet, I will ban each and every other account that's created using the 75+ IP addresses you've logged in with. If I have to, I'll just ban any and every IP address any of your accounts have used. You agreed to the rules of this site when you create new users, rules specifically state that any and all duplicate users can and will be banned. This is your last warning, if there is another account created, they will all be banned using multiple methods where even accessing the front page of the site will be difficult.

[ArelyelKrele]

5 hours ago, xenonph said:

So please don't confuse or accuse Admins or members "straight and to the point" posts, with berating others, when they are just responding to the person who actually did the targeting and berating of a member.

There is a fallacy with this line of thinking. I understand where you are coming from. Yes, the particular member in question is in the wrong for having targeted these creators for using AI art and leaving rude 1-star reviews on them. He needed to be called out for it, I agree. However, as I stated, I have an expectation that staff will address issues with civility. They represent the website. And that is not what happened with one particular admin in the other thread; I saw them dog-pile (act as the other members were acting towards them) and insult the member rather than taking on a more staff-like approach (e.g. issuing warning points, restricting permissions temporarily, removing their reviews, what have you, and writing an objective, factual account of why it is not tolerated on VPU to their private messages). Or at the very least, they didn't respond publicly in the thread with the same civility that Dazz [usually] uses. That ticked me off as a member who expects staff to be role models for us. So the admin in question was also in the wrong for escalating the situation.

 

@citrus333 Speaking as someone who originally had your back when you expressed that table authors should disclose AI use... If what Dazz is saying is true, which it probably is because he is the owner of VPU and has access to all those tools to detect this sort of thing, I'm disappointed you are creating more accounts on VPU. Here, I thought you had potential because you made an informal agreement to change your attitude towards AI tables and fix those rude reviews you left on them. But now you're just outright violating one of the most obvious (because it's even in a 3-year-old announcement) site rules there are. Dazz definitely has a lot of patience with you. IMO, if anything were to be ban-worthy from what was discussed here in this thread, it would be this. Please be thankful for the many chances Dazz is giving you. Use them (or it, since Dazz basically said you have one chance left) wisely. Get rid of those extra accounts and stop making more.

Edited June 4, 2025 by ArelyelKrele

[xenonph]

10 minutes ago, ArelyelKrele said:

There is a fallacy with this line of thinking. I understand where you are coming from. Yes, the particular member in question is in the wrong for having targeted these creators for using AI art and leaving rude 1-star reviews on them. However, as I stated, I have an expectation that staff will address issues with civility. They represent the website. And that is not what happened with one particular admin in the other thread; I saw them dog-pile (act as the other members were acting towards them) and insult the member rather than taking on a more staff-like approach (e.g. issuing warning points, restricting permissions temporarily, removing their reviews, what have you, and writing an objective, factual account of why it is not tolerated on VPU to their private messages). Or at the very least, they didn't respond publicly in the thread with the same civility that Dazz [usually] uses. That ticked me off as a member who expects staff to be role models for us. So the admin in question was also in the wrong for escalating the situation.

 

@citrus333 If what Dazz is saying is true, which it probably is because he is the owner of VPU and has access to all those tools to detect this sort of thing, I'm disappointed you are creating more accounts on VPU. Here, I thought you had potential because you made an informal agreement to change your attitude towards AI tables and fix those rude reviews you left on them. But now you're just outright violating one of the most obvious (because it's even in a 3-year-old announcement) site rules there are. Dazz definitely has a lot of patience with you. If anything were to be ban-worthy from what was discussed here in this thread, it would be this. Please be thankful for the many chances Dazz is giving you. Use them wisely. Get rid of those extra accounts and stop making more.

 

The staff here are great role models.

We all have had bad days where we say something in the heat of the moment.

Nobody is perfect.

 

 

[ArelyelKrele]

3 minutes ago, xenonph said:

The staff here are great role models.

We all have had bad days where we say something in the heat of the moment.

Nobody is perfect.

That's fair, I'll trust you with that because it was an isolated incident and not something I've observed to be common here. I do still stand by having called it out. But I'll avoid making any assumptions that the one incident is a representation of the norm here, because it's not.

Edited June 4, 2025 by ArelyelKrele

[citrus333]

On 6/4/2025 at 10:03 AM, ArelyelKrele said:

There is a fallacy with this line of thinking. I understand where you are coming from. Yes, the particular member in question is in the wrong for having targeted these creators for using AI art and leaving rude 1-star reviews on them. He needed to be called out for it, I agree. However, as I stated, I have an expectation that staff will address issues with civility. They represent the website. And that is not what happened with one particular admin in the other thread; I saw them dog-pile (act as the other members were acting towards them) and insult the member rather than taking on a more staff-like approach (e.g. issuing warning points, restricting permissions temporarily, removing their reviews, what have you, and writing an objective, factual account of why it is not tolerated on VPU to their private messages). Or at the very least, they didn't respond publicly in the thread with the same civility that Dazz [usually] uses. That ticked me off as a member who expects staff to be role models for us. So the admin in question was also in the wrong for escalating the situation.

 

@citrus333 Speaking as someone who originally had your back when you expressed that table authors should disclose AI use... If what Dazz is saying is true, which it probably is because he is the owner of VPU and has access to all those tools to detect this sort of thing, I'm disappointed you are creating more accounts on VPU. Here, I thought you had potential because you made an informal agreement to change your attitude towards AI tables and fix those rude reviews you left on them. But now you're just outright violating one of the most obvious (because it's even in a 3-year-old announcement) site rules there are. Dazz definitely has a lot of patience with you. IMO, if anything were to be ban-worthy from what was discussed here in this thread, it would be this. Please be thankful for the many chances Dazz is giving you. Use them (or it, since Dazz basically said you have one chance left) wisely. Get rid of those extra accounts and stop making more.

 

While they didn't ban this account, they banned my base IP.  Which lead me to believe this account was banned and why I created the other account, I wasn't trying to have multiple accounts at once, I didn't realize the account wasn't banned until just now when I just tried to login to it via a VPN.  I have to login using a VPN or other methods to get access to the site, Dazz IP banned me to try and block me out while seeming like he didn't ban me.  I still don't approve of the methods of the staff or how they behave and treat members of their community, but if we're willing to just let bygones be bygones then I'm fine with that.  I'll just go back to being a guy who downloads tables and doesn't engage with the community any further.

Edited June 20, 2025 by citrus333

[Dazz]

On 6/19/2025 at 11:13 PM, citrus333 said:

 

While they didn't ban this account, they banned my base IP.  Which lead me to believe this account was banned and why I created the other account, I wasn't trying to have multiple accounts at once, I didn't realize the account wasn't banned until just now when I just tried to login to it via a VPN.  I have to login using a VPN or other methods to get access to the site, Dazz IP banned me to try and block me out while seeming like he didn't ban me.  I still don't approve of the methods of the staff or how they behave and treat members of their community, but if we're willing to just let bygones be bygones then I'm fine with that.  I'll just go back to being a guy who downloads tables and doesn't engage with the community any further.

Please PM me your base IP and I'll make sure it's not one of the ones that was auto-banned. Using a VPN to access this site will eventually ban any and every IP associated with it.