Beginning of a New Era

[LynnInDenver]

4 hours ago, freezy said:

Again, we can speculate about this all day. I don't see a lot of value in that. I think pretty much all the arguments have been presented, and it's up to Lucky1 if he wants to collaborate with a proper frame format or keep maintaining a hostile fork of dmdext (or, of course, do the right thing, and make PAC work without dmdext).

For me, that ship has sailed; he's had more than enough time to roll out his own LCD renderer. Clearly that it "works" right now is the only thing that matters to him, especially since this isn't where he's actually making money on it, it's in selling keys to people wanting it on their physical pins and providing colorization authors a "guaranteed" revenue stream.

[Dazz]

I'll preface this by saying that VPUniverse.com does not sell any hardware, nor does VPUniverse.com see anything in return from anyone selling hardware.  VPUniverse.com does not have any horses in the race for any specific products.  Everything here is done for the community by the community.  Everything being done and developed here should have the communities best interest.

This site is for digital / virtual pinball.  I'll say this... I personally don't care for real pin colorizations being done. Technically, ColorDMD, has patents for the colorization of dots for real pinball machines. They officially license games in order to do their colorizations. They can easily shut down any efforts for colorizations. Thankfully they haven't taken legal action outside of requesting that we DO NOT USE the color codes created for their devices. If we continue colorizations for real machines; it could have detrimental results for the community as a whole.

 

If you are doing hardware or colorizations specifically for monetization for use in real pins; you are doing this for the wrong reasons on this site. This whole hobby operates on spoken agreements with manufactures and within grey area of copywritten content.  I have had more headaches regarding colorizations and the monetization of them for real pins than anything else. 

 

If you want to develop specifically for real pin competition with ColorDMD, please go start your own business site.  Please don't drag our hobby and community through the mud and force people to use one or the other.

This battle between @freezy, @lucky1, and @zedrummer needs to come to a conclusion that has ONLY the digital / virtual pinball communities best interest.  

 

 

 

[zedrummer]

Even if I don't think I "battle" with anybody as long as I recognize all the work Lucky1 did, I only defend my opinion in favour of open-source, I perfectly agree with you @Dazz. My messages will now focus on information about ZeDMD, Serum and open-source.

[charlespinball]

Very Confused on how to update firmware I have  a PinDMD3 from virtuapin.net.

 

Is this how to flash firmware are we still asking RussDX for a bin file?? @lucky1

 

 

https://github.com/freezy/dmd-extensions/wiki/PinDMD3:-How-to-flash-a-new-firmware

 

If you have a PinDMD3 can you post the latest instructions for firmware can we download a bin or do we have to get one from RussD?

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by charlespinball

[zedrummer]

For the firmware you should see with VirtuaPin, for the DLL, you could follow the tutorial here https://vpuniverse.com/forums/topic/8433-short-yet-full-serum-installation-howto/

[Terranigma]

On 3/10/2023 at 9:41 PM, Dazz said:

I'll preface this by saying that VPUniverse.com does not sell any hardware, nor does VPUniverse.com see anything in return from anyone selling hardware.  VPUniverse.com does not have any horses in the race for any specific products.  Everything here is done for the community by the community.  Everything being done and developed here should have the communities best interest.

This site is for digital / virtual pinball.  I'll say this... I personally don't care for real pin colorizations being done. Technically, ColorDMD, has patents for the colorization of dots for real pinball machines. They officially license games in order to do their colorizations. They can easily shut down any efforts for colorizations. Thankfully they haven't taken legal action outside of requesting that we DO NOT USE the color codes created for their devices. If we continue colorizations for real machines; it could have detrimental results for the community as a whole.

 

If you are doing hardware or colorizations specifically for monetization for use in real pins; you are doing this for the wrong reasons on this site. This whole hobby operates on spoken agreements with manufactures and within grey area of copywritten content.  I have had more headaches regarding colorizations and the monetization of them for real pins than anything else. 

 

If you want to develop specifically for real pin competition with ColorDMD, please go start your own business site.  Please don't drag our hobby and community through the mud and force people to use one or the other.

This battle between @freezy, @lucky1, and @zedrummer needs to come to a conclusion that has ONLY the digital / virtual pinball communities best interest.  

 

 

 

 

Hi Dazz,

 

I have contacted you in regards to some of these subjects. I am looking to clean up the colour file section and I think now would be a good time to also address some of these issues for the benefit of the site and the community, thank you.

[lucky1]

On 3/10/2023 at 2:41 PM, Dazz said:

This site is for digital / virtual pinball.  I'll say this... I personally don't care for real pin colorizations being done. Technically, ColorDMD, has patents for the colorization of dots for real pinball machines. They officially license games in order to do their colorizations. They can easily shut down any efforts for colorizations. Thankfully they haven't taken legal action outside of requesting that we DO NOT USE the color codes created for their devices. If we continue colorizations for real machines; it could have detrimental results for the community as a whole.

 

If you are doing hardware or colorizations specifically for monetization for use in real pins; you are doing this for the wrong reasons on this site. This whole hobby operates on spoken agreements with manufactures and within grey area of copywritten content.  I have had more headaches regarding colorizations and the monetization of them for real pins than anything else. 

 

Thanks for your public statement about this, Dazz !

 

That is why the pin2dmd editor has different export formats for real and for vpin. To make sure that a vpin export can only be used on a vpin 

and not on a real pinball machine and therefore protect this site from any legal action taken against it, sharing the files here. In fact a lot of the colorizations we use for vpin now come from authors that created it for their real pin. They did not even know about this vpin community. I always asked them to make a vpin export and share it here to have it available for free for the vpin community protecting their work to be spread for real pins.  All pin2dmd vpin colorizations are for free now and will be in the future. 

 

I totally agree with you that this discussion has to come to an end.

It all started when one day some clever guys had the idea to take the vpin colorization code made publicly available in freezys dmdext sources and use it for real pinball machines. This is totally legal according to the GPLV2 dmdext is published under but in the same time puts this forum at risk for the reasons explained above by Dazz. To avoid this misusage pac and my first dmdext/pac solution was created and led to a series of drama posts only having the fight for opensource solutions in mind ignoring the potential threat for this forum. I told all the speachleaders of the "colorization code must be opensource" intiative about this in private mails but they continue to think I make this up to continue to make money with pin2dmd. I can only repeat myself about this , the fact is that Steve and I never made any money with pin2dmd as all donations go to charity projects either directly from the pin2dmd hardware seller or collected by me and then forwarded to them. I admit that I am very protective about any attempt getting around those donations, as I personally know all of the charity projects supported and love each of them from the bottom of my heart. Getting around the donations to activate a pin2dmd hardware for me is like stealing it from the kids with cancer / orphans etc. which makes me very agressive. ZeDMD falls under that category as french cabinet builders and hardware sellers promoted it with "Same features as PIN2DMD but no activation fees" and in the same time ask for several thousand euros for a vpin cabinet.  If you don´t have the money for the donations or want to have a cheap color dmd just use a lcd monitor. Or use pindmdV3 or pixelcade. You can use all colorization on this hardware for free.

 

I have absolutely no problem with Serum from the technical side (although it somehow relies on the pin2dmd LRM mode ). The problem is that now exactly those people trying to use the dmdext colorization code already have announced to use Serum on real pinball praising the god of opensource ! 

I can see the trouble coming ....

 

 

 

 

[arnoz]

Hello

 

Can someone could explain me if that topic is a ego contest, a drama queen contest, or a dick contest....

 

Love...

[lucky1]

Maybe this explains it 

https://shop.arnoz.com/en/

[LynnInDenver]

I get it, @lucky1. I get why you did it. "No Offense" Paul already has tried to weaponize the presence of colorizations here to try to force VPU to close, because he's always considered @Dazz to be a thief. You had noble intentions going in to protect VPU.

 

Unfortunately, contributing the colorization code to @freezy's open source project provided the can opener for the can of worms.

 

Using his dll in violation of the license on the first release of .PAC for Pin2DMD instead of rolling your own LCD render for it, unfortunately, also contributed to the whole drama thing surrounding it; everyone who's made a complaint about the change to .PAC and deprecation of VNI/PAL wouldn't have had one if .PAC had it's own independent LCD renderer from Day One.

 

Like you've been reacting to the threats to VPU and that you perceive to your donation-ware model, @freezy and @zedrummer are also only reacting to perceived threats to their open source model.

 

Regarding the Lazy Commercial Pincab Sellers (potentially) switching over to ZeDMD... they only have three colorizations they can rely on right now, but those c0lorizations have probably also been released under open source, which means that there isn't a restriction on commercial use of either product except for code changes needing to be released to the project.

 

Ultimately, noble intentions, but the means taken to get there with those intentions as justifications have left a lot of people soured.

 

At this point, I do have to question whether it's worth it to me to keep watching this, it's already more or less unfolded and the positions have solidified. I took a look at what legacy VNI/PAL options are still available here, with the idea of maybe reenabling them for streaming on my cabinet (I'd disabled them all because I wasn't sure I wanted to risk funneling people into the mess of licensing and overcomplicated installs), now I'm not sure I should do anything other than walk away from the old colorization system as a whole and never look back.

[arnoz]

17 minutes ago, lucky1 said:

Maybe this explains it 

https://shop.arnoz.com/en/

Nice, so it's a dick one

[okerra]

5 hours ago, lucky1 said:

 

¡Gracias por tu declaración pública sobre esto, Dazz!

 

Es por eso que el editor pin2dmd tiene diferentes formatos de exportación para real y para vpin. Para asegurarse de que una exportación de vpin solo se pueda usar en un vpin 

y no en una máquina de pinball real y, por lo tanto, protege este sitio de cualquier acción legal en su contra, compartiendo los archivos aquí. De hecho, muchas de las colorizaciones que usamos para vpin ahora provienen de autores que lo crearon para su pin real. Ni siquiera sabían acerca de esta comunidad vpin. Siempre les pedí que hicieran una exportación de vpin y la compartieran aquí para tenerla disponible de forma gratuita para la comunidad de vpin que protege su trabajo para que se difunda por pines reales. Todas las colorizaciones pin2dmd vpin son gratuitas ahora y lo serán en el futuro. 

 

Estoy totalmente de acuerdo contigo en que esta discusión tiene que llegar a su fin.

Todo comenzó cuando un día, algunos tipos inteligentes tuvieron la idea de tomar el código de colorización vpin disponible públicamente en las fuentes de freezys dmdext y usarlo para máquinas de pinball reales. Esto es totalmente legal de acuerdo con GPLV2 dmdext se publica bajo pero al mismo tiempo pone en riesgo este foro por las razones explicadas anteriormente por Dazz. Para evitar este uso indebido, pac y mi primera solución dmdext/pac se crearon y dieron lugar a una serie de publicaciones dramáticas que solo tenían en mente la lucha por las soluciones de código abierto, ignorando la amenaza potencial para este foro. Les dije a todos los líderes de discursos de la iniciativa "el código de coloración debe ser de código abierto" sobre esto en correos privados, pero siguen pensando que lo inventé para seguir ganando dinero con pin2dmd. Solo puedo repetirme sobre esto, el hecho es que Steve y yo nunca ganamos dinero con pin2dmd, ya que todas las donaciones se destinan a proyectos de caridad, ya sea directamente del vendedor de hardware de pin2dmd o las recojo yo y luego se las envío. Admito que soy muy protector con cualquier intento de eludir esas donaciones, ya que conozco personalmente todos los proyectos de caridad apoyados y amo a cada uno de ellos desde el fondo de mi corazón. Eludir las donaciones para activar un hardware pin2dmd para mí es como robárselo a los niños con cáncer / huérfanos, etc., lo que me vuelve muy agresivo. ZeDMD entra en esa categoría ya que los constructores de gabinetes franceses y los vendedores de hardware lo promocionaron con "Las mismas características que PIN2DMD pero sin tarifas de activación" y al mismo tiempo solicitan varios miles de euros por un gabinete vpin. Si no tienes el dinero para las donaciones o quieres tener un dmd a color barato solo usa un monitor lcd. O use pindmdV3 o pixelcade. Puede usar toda la coloración en este hardware de forma gratuita.

 

No tengo absolutamente ningún problema con Serum desde el punto de vista técnico (aunque de alguna manera depende del modo pin2dmd LRM). ¡El problema es que ahora exactamente aquellas personas que intentan usar el código de colorización dmdext ya han anunciado que usarán Serum en pinball real alabando al dios del código abierto! 

Veo que se avecina el problema...

 

 

 

 

I think the biggest problem is when there is money involved, and that is why for the moment we survive, without Zen pinball or others paying much attention to us, the problem I see in pin2dmd is that there is money involved either in licenses ( I didn't mind paying for the solution that it gave me back in the day, believe me it's not a problem for me to pay for a product) and in colorizations for real, that's where the dogs will attack you, I repeat, I don't mind paying for work legit and the support you give, I'm worried that this money is the one that puts an end to what I like

[freezy]

11 hours ago, arnoz said:

Can someone could explain me if that topic is a ego contest, a drama queen contest, or a dick contest....

 

That wasn't very productive, was it.

 

@lucky1: Your reply is textbook FUD. You don't even react to my message. You defend your position of the PIN2DMD firmware fee, although that was never even a topic. The topic is your license violation, your hostile fork, and the colorization monetization that incentivizes authors to do it for the money instead of why all the rest of us do it - because it's our hobby.

 

We still don't have an answer why you think it's okay to use my project in your PAC renderer for code you didn't write. We still don't know why you think taking new open source code like Serum and putting it into your fork is okay, when at the same time you make open source responsible for its "misuse". Have some integrity, at least. If open source is so bad, then don't use it!

 

I've chosen the GPL for a reason. It's not my fault that you obviously didn't spend a second trying to understand what that means before you contributed to the project. Please don't make my project pay for your mistakes.

[arnoz]

8 hours ago, freezy said:

 

That wasn't very productive, was it.

 

That's exactly what people think when reading that topic, and you can trust me I talk with lots of them.

Do you think it's also very productive telling shit about "french hardware sellers" ?
Just to be clear, DotMatixis actually used on about 10 or 15% VP Cab, most users use LCD screen, so it's a tiny part of builds, a lot of noise for some cab...

Then without "hardware resselers" there will be less cab with dot matrix, less dot matrix is less money for "charity".

hardware need software, and software need hardware...
Doing charity is nice, really, but when charity is an argument to be the "Mother Theresa" of virtual pinball, for me it's shit, you can do charity but you can't force people to do it, and you don't have to claim about your charity in most of your reply.... In france when we give found to charity, we have a "personnal taxes reduction", is that the same in all country
Sincerly, most of community look your war as a dick contest, and it's boring.

Then, as I'm a hardware sellers, I can't say a word on it ? (Lucky's answer with a link to my shop is very argumented !!!) I'm also a VP user, a dev (with my A led software), I help community too, but I'm not saying that on all forum and group, but as I'm a hardware sellers I just have to shut up ? is that a joke ?

Really, some people have a lot to think about their ego, and their dick....

 

[lucky1]

8 hours ago, freezy said:

The topic is your license violation, your hostile fork, and the colorization monetization that incentivizes authors to do it for the money instead of why all the rest of us do it - because it's our hobby.

 

Not a single colorization for vpin has been monetized, so what is your point ?

 

8 hours ago, freezy said:

We still don't have an answer why you think it's okay to use my project in your PAC renderer for code you didn't write.

 

Because that is the way you recommended it in your first "End of an era" drama. 

 

Quote

A compromise: we create an API that does coloring only (an API is like a contract of how different pieces of software communicate with each other). Lucky1 converts his code to match the API as well. Dmdext loads any library that implements the API at runtime, if available. But both programs need to be shipped separately, in order to respect the GPL.

 

Since you did not define that API I started my work on it and after some tests I opened a pull request to your repo.

You then noticed that your recommendation had a drawback for ZeDMD and in the meantime added the following line to that text.

 

Quote

The API supports all the frame formats used today (not just RGB24). 

 

That new line in your text is all we discuss now. None of the supported devices except ZeDMD needs anything different than RGB24 to work, which has been proven by all the testers of my build. The frame format you demand for ZeDMD now (ColoredGray6) has been developed by me and just recently been added by mista-funky and me to the dmdext code . I´m totally o.k that zedrummer reuses this frame format for his editor and ZeDMD, but forcing me to deliver colorized frames in that format for easy export of fsq/vni/pac colorizations to Serum and to overcome the performance issues of ZeDMD. Come on !!  Just a hint : The bottleneck is not the hardware it is the software.

 

I also don´t have an answer to my question

 

Would you remove vni/pal support from your builds if I , according to the GPLV2 license, revoke the license to read that frame format and use my code added to dmdext ?

 

 

 

 

[lucky1]

37 minutes ago, arnoz said:

Do you think it's also very productive telling shit about "french hardware sellers" ?

 

[arnoz]

You can't put every french hardware sellers in the same bag of that guy dude !!!!
I don't want to be associated with him, really ! 

I don't sell pincab with table pack....

If you think about one particular shop, namme it, and don't say "french hardware sellers"

When I talk about you, I namme you, I don't say "German devs"

 

[okerra]

hace 59 minutos, lucky1 dijo:

 

¿Eliminaría la compatibilidad con vni/pal de sus compilaciones si yo, de acuerdo con la licencia GPLV2, revoco la licencia para leer ese formato de marco y uso mi código agregado a dmdext?

 

I see that this problem is not going to end, but I think that it will be of little use to you, this WAR ONLY exists because YOU want it, you have already lost it and you do not know it (people do not want war, they want to enjoy), they did not want to support to the zedmd hardware, thinking that without their support they would not get anywhere, they created a software, it was of little use trying to stop it, now what do you want?  prohibit them from using pal/vni??  (this really should be up to each colorist to really decide) more colorations will be created (see attack from mars)

Edited March 16, 2023 by okerra

[okerra]

It's funny that the person who prevents the PAC format. plays on zedmd is making it possible for serum to play on pin2dmd, I think the more it's pronounced, the more people realize that it's not the ways in an ecosystem where everything is done out of passion, nothing belongs to us (IP Licensing) and they all row to one side.

[lucky1]

On 3/16/2023 at 10:31 AM, okerra said:

now what do you want?  prohibit them from using pal/vni??

 

No of course not. I was just asking this because freezy asked me stop using his lcd renderer. He is allowed to continue to use my code but

I´m not allowed to use his ??

Another question, what would dmdext be without my coloring logic in it and the pin2dmd editor of steve ? I don´t think that the lcd renderer is a key feature of dmdext which kind of is already built into pinmame, but coloring is a key feature if not the only one that is really interesting for the user.

 

[LynnInDenver]

53 minutes ago, lucky1 said:

No of course not. I was just asking this because freezy asked me stop using his lcd renderer. He is allowed to continue to use my code but

I´m not allowed to use his ??

 

You provided the code to him to use under a GPL license. This license comes with specific requirements for sharing of code and features.

 

You then used his code (also under that GPL license) from that in your project, which you have under a fundamentally incompatible license, and includes features that are considered absolutely forbidden under the GPL. In other words, you can't use his code under the license you're using for your own project.

 

In other words, you provided him code into a project that's meant to be shared freely with no lockdowns at all, and yet you're whining "but why can't I use your toys" when he's saying you can't use his code that he meant to he shared with no lockdowns in your project that has elements not shared and significant lockdowns. You're violating all the spirits of the agreement you signed onto when you did that, which is why your project is considered a hostile fork of his.

 

GPL submitted code is required to be a form of "Share Alike", and your project is anything but that.

[freezy]

So, trying to conclude here.

 

But first, I want to make something clear. RGB24 or not RGB24 has no impact whatsoever on real pins. Dmdext is a Windows software made for virtual pins, so whatever API or devices it supports has no effect on how real pin displays work. This means that even if Lucky1 fixes the RGB24 output in his plugin, PIN2DMD will still be the only display that works with PIN2DMD coloring on the real pin side.

 

That said, I have been talking to a few developers and they think that converting RGB24 should be doable, even in real time. So, my proposition is the following:

1. I port back Lucky1's plugin system from his fork into dmdext.
2. I convert the RGB24 output back into colored 4/6-bit frames that work with all displays.
3. I'll test and see how well that works. If there's a lag, you'll need a faster computer.
4. Lucky1 provides the PAC coloring DLL separately, where people can download it.

This would solve the problem of the hostile fork and the GPL violation. It also solves other problems the fork has, like laggy video mode on PinDMD3s with 4-bit coloring. It will also relieve Lucky1 of having to keep maintaining the fork.

 

So, it would be the solution with maximal benefits for everyone. It's still stupid to have to do the conversion when there's no technical reason for it, but I guess that's the ego tax.

 

@lucky1 let us know if you agree with the points above.

 

Also, if you're a coloring author, please like this post if you agree. And my message from the first post still stands. Serum got quite some traction meanwhile, and if you're fine with soon-to-be-released real pin Serum support, you should give it a try.

 

As a final note, personally, this is a compromise of what I already consider a compromise. I'm still not happy having DRM in my project, further pushing the monetization incentive. But I also recognize that for now, it's the best shot we have at a solution with everyone's best interests in mind.

[LynnInDenver]

36 minutes ago, freezy said:

As a final note, personally, this is a compromise of what I already consider a compromise. I'm still not happy having DRM in my project, further pushing the monetization incentive. But I think that for now, it's the best shot we have at a solution with everyone's best interests in mind.

 

My opinion is there is still a monetization incentive even with open source. If people want to pay for colorization files ready to go on their choice of solution, they will still pay for them. Many will pay for them to ensure the colorizations keep coming out.

[marccy1138]

As a "layperson" and only a couple years into this addiction of Vpinball, I have to say the dialogue is dizzying. Not being a coder or otherwise I couldn't tell you who is right or wrong.

 

Color DMD's are just flat out amazing when they are done well and really add to the experience. A poster before mentioned trying to go back to TOTAN without color and it being horrible. I would agree. I have basically every one out there including some hard ones to get. I have the old format, pac and the new Serum (which looks really promising and I hope the open source nature prompts more folks to do them). The "disappearance" of the older format is troubling for newbies but the community always has a way of helping its own.

 

I respect both Freezy and Lucky for what they do and their contributions to the hobby. Certainly the DMD is an essential part of the experience and whatever the technical vehicle the data uses to arrive at my DMD, I am glad for it. 

 

The thing that has been amazing to me is the way the community helps each other and supports the great work folks do.  The learning curve in this hobby is steep and without the community I would never be where I am now. Sure, there are your "pack" sellers and other fools who don't respect the content, but the vast majority just want the content they know and love. I mean, I know I get excited when I see a new VPW table or color rom suddenly show up on VPU or VPF.

 

I just hope the "format feud" doesn't reach an apex where the community as a whole suffers from a loss of Freezy and Lucky's support.

 

 

 

 

 

[zedrummer]

I understand, @marccy1138, that seems a little bit too much for only the colorization specific subject among the huge world of vpins!

But you must understand that, even for that specific part, and I speak for Freezy, Lucky1, me (whatever Lucky1 says) and others, that's thousands of hours coding, debugging... investing a non negligible time of our life.

So you must understand the feeling when you have earn a certain popularity from your code and it starts to be superseded.

That's why I don't want to enter the "you said that", "I answer that", because there are always real good reasons to defend your opinion and it's neverending.

I said once what I think is important for me, I wouldn't have entered the competition of the format without a refusal from Lucky1, but I really understand how he feels.

 

8 hours ago, marccy1138 said:

I just hope the "format feud" doesn't reach an apex where the community as a whole suffers from a loss of Freezy and Lucky's support.

That is one of the interest of open-source, your code is never 100% yours. OK, the code for my editor is a big mess that would make it... "uneasy" (euphemism) to dive into, but it is available.