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What is your opinion of DOF devices? Are they really worth the cost and effort? DOF Hardware recommendations? Would the money be better spent on VR?


shaker

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Hi All; 

 

I'm considering adding some DOF devices to my Virtual Pinball Cabinet. 

 

However, I'd like to hear all thoughts about DOF before I spend any more cash. 

 

My cabinet's IO is handled by a KL25Z from https://ibuildcoolshit.com/. I'm really happy with their "BASIC DIGITAL PINBALL PLUNGER KIT W/ KL25Z, PLUG AND PLAY , NUDGE/TILT" kit.

 

I've just added the Jr. Shaker Motor from the same vendor, and I think the results are mixed. Some games that have a bunch of short pulses are great. Games that just turn the shaker on high for 15 seconds straight make me notice the sound of the shaker motor (along with the good vibrations). 

 

I like the idea of the https://www.clevelandsoftwaredesign.com/ solenoid kits. They seem to have everything handled except the knocker, which seems like a major miss. 

 

Are DOF devices for flippers, slings and bumpers really worth it, or it the emersion gain minimal? 

 

Do the 12V "truck starter" solenoids do a decent job of replicating the sound and feel of real high voltage pinball solenoids? 

 

What DOF vendors or hardware should be considered or avoided? 

 

Would the money be better spend on a VR capable video card and a VR headset for my cabinet?

 

Thanks for your help! 

 

   - Mark 

 

 

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HI,

 

Yeah, i believe that DOF is totally worth it and certain elements are  nice to have and some are essential.

 

Nice to have:

  • Shaker motor (great when implemented right, works better when placed right in cab)
  • Replay knocker (authentic but hardly used)
  • Gear Motor (used more than I expected)

Essential:

  • Solenoids/contactors for flippers, bumpers, pops and slingshots
  • Strobes (they add SO MUCH)
  • Flashers/Lights (immersion and such)

Meh:

  • Front button lights (nice but I never look at them)

 

"Do the 12V "truck starter" solenoids do a decent job of replicating the sound and feel of real high voltage pinball solenoids? "

 

yeah, they do.  no, they are not as strong as the real thing but you're playing in a virtual cab and they are capable of subtle sounds depending on pulse length and they DO provide a bit of physical feedback if mounted in right place.  IMO these are the things that when turned off totally deaded the experiance. I think they are essential (I have 10 connected to a Zebsboard.  6 for bumpers and pops, 2 for flippers and 2 for slingshots)

 

I think the feedback devices are more important in immersion than more shiny graphics... personally

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The only reason I don't currently have a shaker is because my internal computer, the CPU cooler "stack" oscillates wildly. At some point I will externalize it and reinstall the shaker.

 

I have a knocker, which I consider essential. I also have chimes, which is nice for EMs but not strictly essential. I am only using SSF right now for the rest... I may start getting and installing solenoids for things like flippers next year, but overall SSF helps to fill the gaps and gives the ball rolling from the cabinet instead of the backglass, and I would recommend installing that first before proceeding with solenoids.

 

I do agree that the buttons on the front isn't something you directly pay attention to while playing, but on the other side my cabinet was built with the idea of guests playing on it, so having that DOF helps, especially with the Extra Ball button.

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@outhere:

 

Wow, your set-up is amazing!  But, Yeah... I'm not gona put in that much effort. 😞

 

 

@LynnInDenver:

 

Thanks for the word on SSF. I just checked out VPForum's set-up guide. I already have the usual  2.1 set-up installed. It's possible that I have USB 7.1 solution sitting on my shelf, as I inherited a bunch of computer audio stuff from my Dad. So I might just need exciters and amps.  

 

Sounds like a cooler downgrade would help you get that shaker motor. Are you water cooling? 

 

P.S. I do have chimes installed in my homebrew for a timetravel mode. (Odds of ever completing my homebrew: 1/10.) 

 

 

Anybody:

 

Any opinions on installing solenoids on the underside of the playfield, rather than mounted directly to the cabinet?

 

Just guessing: 

Pro: Most accurate locations, easy install and maintenance.

Con: Less "kick", as the playfield only touches the cab at the pivots and hangers.

 

   - Mark

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1 hour ago, shaker said:

Any opinions on installing solenoids on the underside of the playfield, rather than mounted directly to the cabinet?

 

Just guessing: 

Pro: Most accurate locations, easy install and maintenance.

Con: Less "kick", as the playfield only touches the cab at the pivots and hangers.

 

   - Mark

 

I would say you can do it if your playfield mount spans the cabinet and touches the cabinet walls like a real playfield, otherwise, you'll want to install spars across the cabinet to mount the solenoids onto to get them into the correct locations for proper transmission of the sound.

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Personally, I play with the DOF off - 90% of the time. Well, the solenoids I should say. Partly because wife isn't a fan. Partly because I don't like that the 12V car starters sound more or less the same. That I could change myself though; just haven't yet. I use the https://zebsboards.ca all-in-one kit. Haven't had any issues with it, except for me being an idiot, blowing something up - not turning it off while working inside. The night mode is something that I use all the time though. All the lights and flashers just adds to the experience. IF wife is out, and I have friends over, thats when I turn on everything. Solenoids, shaker and knocker.

 

I find that having good SSF is a very nice substitute ... but, yeah, DOF and SSF mixed together is when the cab shines; says my friends. I guess after playing for years, I tend to "hear the solenoids" differently. So, if you don't have SSF - then, I recommend adding that first and foremost.

 

Knocker is essential - I agree. Same goes for a regular tilt bob in fact ! And, yeah, I think Outhere's solution would be optimal. But, for me, with this kit already installed, I don't really have the space inside.

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@Thalamus: 

 

I ditched my wife 22 years ago, so no worries there! 

 

I was aware of Zeb's all in one kits. It looks like they are not currently being offered, but I think the last time I looked they were $750. Which is more that I wanted to spend at one time. 

 

At the moment, I'm leaning towards SSF + a real knocker

 

I already have a real tilt bob.

 

I checked the external USB Audio equipment my Dad left me, but it's only 5.1. I guess I'll have to drop for a sound card in addition to the power supplies, amps and exciters.

 

 

Anybody: 

 

Is there a plug-and-play knocker kit for sale for the KL25Z? 

 

   - Mark

 

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External USB audio 5.1, should be sufficient for SSF. I don't follow the stuff on facebook, but, seen several using that. I use the onboard realtek 5.1.

Recommend 3 amps in total, 1 for speaker, sub, 1 for a pair of exciters near the backbox and a pair with its own amp near the flippers. Cheap, easy to install and doesn't put your house on fire if left on ;)

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On 9/11/2022 at 4:00 PM, LynnInDenver said:

The only reason I don't currently have a shaker is because my internal computer, the CPU cooler "stack" oscillates wildly. At some point I will externalize it and reinstall the shaker.

 You can isolate the computer parts on a shelf in the cab with foam "washers" works really well no need to externalise...

Quote

VIP Class

2k

Posted 55 minutes ago

External USB audio 5.1, should be sufficient for SSF. I don't follow the stuff on facebook, but, seen several using that. I use the onboard realtek 5.1.

Seconded.  I run 5.1 off the motherboard and the only thing even slightl;y annoying with this setup is not being able to break out the SUB (as the LEPY amp I have is a little sensitive to SUB volume). but the effects work fine  with 5.1 + 2 x 2ch + 1 x 2.1ch Amps

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3 hours ago, hcj13 said:

https://www.pinballlife.com/knocker-kit-for-spooky-pinball.html
 

this worked for me. Make sure you put a diode in. 

 

@hcj13: 

 

What do you use for the 48V power supply? 

 

What do you use to trigger the knocker based on the signal from the KL25Z?

The "Spooky P-ROC Knocker and Shaker Expansion Board Assembly"? 

I can't tell if this board is just a terminal board or if it has electronic "relays"  (sorry I can't remember the proper name) on it.

 

Thanks! 

 

   - Mark 

 

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3 hours ago, LegoYoda said:

Seconded.  I run 5.1 off the motherboard and the only thing even slightly annoying with this setup is not being able to break out the SUB (as the LEPY amp I have is a little sensitive to SUB volume). but the effects work fine  with 5.1 + 2 x 2ch + 1 x 2.1ch Amps

 

@LynnInDenver and LegoYoda: 

 

I just checked my cab's "gaming" PC's audio outputs: Judging by the colors on the jacks, it only has 2 channel output (along with Mic In and Analog In).

My cab currently uses a Logitech PC Audio System, as I already had it laying around when I built my cab.

 

Can I continue to use the onboard audio for music and call-outs, and use my Dad's 5.1 channel USB Creative Sound Blaster Extigy (Windows 95 compatible!) (plus amps) to drive the 4 exciters. 

 

I don't understand how a 5.1 channel output could drive everything. Wouldn't I need at least 6 channels? (2 for stereo music and call-outs + 4 for the four exciters.) 

 

   - Mark 

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53 minutes ago, shaker said:

 

@hcj13: 

 

What do you use for the 48V power supply? 

 

What do you use to trigger the knocker based on the signal from the KL25Z?

The "Spooky P-ROC Knocker and Shaker Expansion Board Assembly"? 

I can't tell if this board is just a terminal board or if it has electronic "relays"  (sorry I can't remember the proper name) on it.

 

Thanks! 

 

   - Mark 

 

I used a 12v that I had and it fires plenty loud. It is plugged into the KL25z as an output. 
I thought initially it doesn’t fire without at least 24v. But figured out it was just my DOF software setup. Once fixed it works fine. It is the spooky knocker in pinballlife without any boards attached to it. 

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28 minutes ago, shaker said:

 

@LynnInDenver and LegoYoda: 

 

I just checked my cab's "gaming" PC's audio outputs: Judging by the colors on the jacks, it only has 2 channel output (along with Mic In and Analog In).

My cab currently uses a Logitech PC Audio System, as I already had it laying around when I built my cab.

Can I continue to use the onboard audio for music and call-outs, and use my Dad's 5.1 channel USB Creative Sound Blaster Extigy (Windows 95 compatible!) (plus amps) to drive the 4 exciters. 

I don't understand how a 5.1 channel output could drive everything. Wouldn't I need at least 6 channels? (2 for stereo music and call-outs + 4 for the four exciters.) 

   - Mark 

I use my on board for the speakers in the backbox and subwoofer and my sound card for the 4 extenders - 3 amps

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21 minutes ago, hcj13 said:

I used a 12v that I had and it fires plenty loud. It is plugged into the KL25z as an output. 
I thought initially it doesn’t fire without at least 24v. But figured out it was just my DOF software setup. Once fixed it works fine. It is the spooky knocker in pinballlife without any boards attached to it. 

 

@hcj13: 

 

Thank you! 

 

   - Mark

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4 hours ago, shaker said:

 

@LynnInDenver and LegoYoda: 

 

I just checked my cab's "gaming" PC's audio outputs: Judging by the colors on the jacks, it only has 2 channel output (along with Mic In and Analog In).

My cab currently uses a Logitech PC Audio System, as I already had it laying around when I built my cab.

 

Can I continue to use the onboard audio for music and call-outs, and use my Dad's 5.1 channel USB Creative Sound Blaster Extigy (Windows 95 compatible!) (plus amps) to drive the 4 exciters. 

 

I don't understand how a 5.1 channel output could drive everything. Wouldn't I need at least 6 channels? (2 for stereo music and call-outs + 4 for the four exciters.) 

 

   - Mark 

 

I personally use a 7.1 system, it's an external USB device on my setup. Like a lot of things, it can be simpler to troubleshoot if you have ONE subsystem (7.1 USB) than TWO (speaker jack and 5.1 card). I've had a Windows Update bork my audio before, and it was easier to tell it was a software configuration wipe because my backbox speakers were still working, I was just getting hardware audio through them too instead of in the cabinet.

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18 hours ago, shaker said:

 

@LynnInDenver and LegoYoda: 

 

I just checked my cab's "gaming" PC's audio outputs: Judging by the colors on the jacks, it only has 2 channel output (along with Mic In and Analog In).

My cab currently uses a Logitech PC Audio System, as I already had it laying around when I built my cab.

 

Can I continue to use the onboard audio for music and call-outs, and use my Dad's 5.1 channel USB Creative Sound Blaster Extigy (Windows 95 compatible!) (plus amps) to drive the 4 exciters. 

 

I don't understand how a 5.1 channel output could drive everything. Wouldn't I need at least 6 channels? (2 for stereo music and call-outs + 4 for the four exciters.) 

 

   - Mark 

Most 2ch + mic + Analogue in PC inputs/outputs on the motherboard can be altered in SW by installing the driver and whatever app is relevent (usually Realtek audio mixer).  You can then re assign these ports to be  what they need to be with the 3 x outputs you CAN get 6 channels from them. Even though it says "mic" it's still likley a  tri-pole socket (L,R,G)

- Audio out (Stays as is) -maps to front facing speakers for ROM and can split out SUB using a 2.1 AMP (it uses a filter / crossover)

- Audio Input (alters to Front Surround) - maps to rear exciters

- Mic Input (alters to Rear Surround) - Maps to  front exciters

 

In my specific case the SW allows this mapping but only using the front IO Audio header for the main channes (which is a bit wierd, but it works).

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@LegoYoda: 

 

Once again: Thank you! 

 

I'm pretty sure the audio is Realtek. 

 

I'll order the exciters, amps and power supplies. If I can't make the onboard audio provide 6 channels: I'll order either a USB Audio Interface or a Sound Card ($40-$45) either way I go. 

 

It will probably be a couple weeks before I have a chance to get everything and experiment. 

 

   - Mark 

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I can already tell this is going to be an adventure....

 

Ironically, my VP Cabinet has the most powerful computer I own: An HP "Gaming" PC with a 10'th Gen I5 and a NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650. 

 

The onboard audio is Realtek HD Audio, but the current Realtek HD Audio Driver package will not install on my PC: It just runs the uninstall process over and over. This is probably because HP want's me to use their OMEN Gaming Hub's Audio Lab instead. Except, I updated the OMEN Gaming Hub, and it does not contain the advertised Audio Lab!

 

BTW: I also opened up the "Gaming" PC for first time. In addition to the full size slot with the the video card plugged into it: it has *1* PCI-Express slot. In addition to the original M.2 240GB SSD, it has *1* SATA connector. I kinda feel like I just opened a box of cereal, and 1/2 the package was just air. Like why did HP make the case so big, there is nothing that can be done with the space...

 

I ordered 4 - 40 W, 4 Ohm, shielded exciters, 2 -  "open box" Fosi 2 x 100 W amps with power adapters, and an "open box" Creative Labs 7.1 sound card. (I'm hoping that the Creative Labs' equalizer software will work for Win 10.)

 

I've got plenty of audio cables and speaker wire, so $242 (+ my state sales tax) all in. If I had a mother board with 7.1 audio, I could have capped it at $200.

 

I guess I could have saved a bit by getting just 2 x 50 W amps. But I figured if this set-up does not have enough punch, I could double-up the exciters at each corner. Also, at least these amps have treble and bass knobs, so if the I can't change the EQ through software, I'll at least have a little control.  

 

BTW: I put the real knocker on hold, as I don't want to spend any more at the moment. 

 

Wish me luck!  

 

   - Mark

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I have a real knocker in my cab, but turned it off, as I played mostly early mornings (between 4.00 and 7.00 am) and my neighbours complained about it.

My solenoids I replaced for 7.1 ssf (with 4 exciters). I really like that . At night, i turn off the center and bass speakers, so only have the sounds of the flippers, solenoids , rails etc.

For DOF i have also  rgb flashers and strobes, side leds on my play field and put my mx leds externally (on top) of my cab.

 

Heres my complete story with upgrades https://forums.gameex.com/forums/topic/22347-pincab-my-virtual-pinball-cabinet-build/

 

Good luck with your upgrade

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@MikeDASpike: 

 

Very nice build! 

 

I can't claim to have built my cabinet, as I started with a Virtua Pin Cabinet (bare plywood). 

(I'm lucky enough to be local, so no shipping, and Paul had a "second" available at a discount!)

 

I first decided not to have any DOF or other feedback devices. Now here I am with a shaker motor, adding SSF within a few weeks, probably a knocker by year end. 

 

I'm still holding the line on added lighting/flashers and LEDs... Check back next year... 😉

 

   - Mark 

 

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I have a mini cab that's I've maxed out as much as I can. I use 7.1 surround with SSF and some toys. I don't have a real shaker motor or a knocker as I simply do not have room. I only use stuff that works off 12V or 5V PC power supplies. I use a dedicated PSU for the toys and a main one for for running the PC system.

 

I only have 2x solenoids for the flippers which works really well. The rest of the table sounds are handled by SSF with 4x exciters around the inside of the cab walls.

 

The issue with using maximum solenoids for a cab (for me) is that all the tables will sound exactly the same. It's nice that tables can sound differently in SSF.

 

I also have 2x beacons, strobe LED lighting and RGB flipper buttons and lockbar button.  Full strip RGB LED lighting round the back and underside of the table with a 5x RGB flasher bar.  These toys only use 12V and the LEDs 5V though a PacLED64. There's also a marine 12V blower fan on top of the backbox that is very effective.   

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