What Future Pinball Is Better?

[blackphoenixpt]

Hi Guys!

What Future Pinball MOD do you think is better?

Original?

FP 2.5

FP 2.5 R2

FP Zed

FP 2.6 (Slamt1lt)

 

Why? and the Pro and Con.

 

Please no personnal wars in here, just state your opinion and justify the Pro and Con so we can all agree and disagree in a polite manner.

 

 

[blackphoenixpt]

I start!

 

I preffer FP2.5R2 (the "Physics Mod" version)

 

PRO:

From a programmer's perspective... more capabilities.

Better physics

Most of the tables pre-zed and pre-2.6 work fine (some tunnig can be done in tables for the most perfectionists)

the rest... is in the README.TXT of the R2 download file. lol

 

CON:

I don't see any compared to the others MODs.

Maybe the ball could feel more heavy (like it seems to feel in the Zed MOD (for what I've seen. I don't have it))

 

 

by the way... here's R2 in action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBJZ3pOhh0s

[Loafmeister]

Zed tables, aiming is better with zed modded tables and in pinball, Ability to aim is pretty important.

[freneticamnesic]

I do prefer Zed personally, and I feel BP may be a bit biased towards one........

[blackphoenixpt]

1. Loafmeister - You made your point in the aiming. Have you tried R2 with Physics Mod? Is that aiming wrong?
2. Freneticamnesic - ??? Where's the Pro and Con and compared to wich version?

Thanks for participating.

[Loafmeister]

BP: that is a good point, I am not certain if I tried this version 2, I may be confusing it with your first version. Can it be enabled via Bam as with the other physics mod which work with original exe? If I can't run it through Bam it's not an option for me

[blackphoenixpt]

Loaf- Install R2 then unpack R2 Physics Mod overwriting the R2 .exe and you're done. The R2 Phys. Mod only have the R2 executables modded.

Try it and come back. I want to hear your opinion.

NB: So far... I heard that Zed Mod is better that any other Mod out there BUT it was BEFORE R2 Phys Mod.

Personally, I don't use Zed or any other Mod beside R2. I will not make a point of promoting "R2 vs Zed" or "R2 vs xxx", I gave up the idea long time ago.

[Gimli]

When I unpacked the physics mod to overwrite R2 ,  the date and size of all the files were the same?

 

Playing with out Bam on my lap top,  seems quite good.. I like the physics.  Hard to compare both zed and R2 physics , both seem fine.

It crashes when I exit table with Bam enabled.

 

 

R2 Pros       -should work as you mentionned with all pre-physics mod tables.  

                     -Internal mod allows updating original physics ( Someone mentionned using newer versions of Newton physics engine?  Is that what you are doing?)

 

R2 Con -  Zed tables are tweaked uniquely for each table  ( which may or may not be good ?)

               -Crashes with Bam (at least my version on my lap top)

               -R2 stifled by the political stuff

[blackphoenixpt]

Gimli.... Coooooool!

R2 physics are Hardcoded so no need to external .xml. The good news for you is that (since you use BAM) you can play ANY table (Zed,2.5,2.6) bla bla bla.

AND... you have the bonus of being an R2 you can have a peek at the \Programming directory and use the templates (VB and C++) do do stuff from the API returned by FP R2.

Of course, only READING from FP is possible. R2 cannot INPUT stuff (like APIs) only OUTPUT stuff (APIS ClipboardData and OutputDebugString).

 

I'm using the VB6 template to capture AddDebugText "" from a FP table and Resending it to the COM port where my Arduino is. My Arduino gets the commands from Windows (Send by my tiny program) and do his programming (that is light leds, motor and contactors). Maybe I will do a LedWiz commands compatible in the future (at this stage, only the commands defined in my program and in the Table Script work. I add a line like -> AddDebugText "ARD:Strobe250" and the strobe in my cab lights up during 250ms every time a Strobe or Flasher is referenced in the Table Script and this special line is added. For helping in the process of WHAT in the script will light WHAT in my cab, I've done a Simulator of my Cab whith the light in place. Now, I can test HOW the lights will light up (AS SOON AS I FINISH CONNECTING THE DAMN THING. lol )

As soon as I finish my electronics in my cab I will post a Video of it)

[Gimli]

I know nothing about all this stuff, I am no programmer

It sounds like part of it is hardcode (ie the physics and removing watermarks etc..) and some of it is intercepting the modified FP and doing other stuff with it (ie Contactors, Strobes, LEDS),  like Bam does ("Assymetric Frustrum", Lights, New Renderer, Normal Maps) 

 

I know the controversy,  for some ,stems from the hard coding part and not the interception part.

 

Somewhere I read about Newton Physics engine being updated numerous times over the years.

I wonder if people would be as concerned about just updating this, but keeping the rest of FP.exe same as original.

 

ie Update the Parts but not the intent of the Original Author?

 

This may not be your thing and I do appreciate all the work you've done here.  I think FP is amazing and it only makes sense to keep updating it and pushing the envelope.

 

BTW your name "BlackPhoenixPt" is interesting .  I may be off base, but here's an interpretation (I'm probably wrong LOL, it's like interpreting dreams)

Black - reference to FP author, I think that was his nickname   Phoenix- the mythological bird that rises from the ashes, like you are trying to do with FP !

and Pt -  Which means "pinball table"  (ie tron.fpt).  I am probably wrong but it's amusing at least to me

 

Cheers

[Loafmeister]

I don't believe in using modified exe. It's a personal decision and I am not preaching to you to do otherwise, I just won't go there. If it can be loaded entirely through BAM with the standard FP exe then I am interested in trying it.

Thanks

Rob

[blackphoenixpt]

Loafmeister - Good point. Way off topic but good point. If I'm not mistaken, you have said that before and in another site (and I agreed with you then, but still, not the point)

Sharing is always good.

[Loafmeister]

It was off topic but it was the only way I could answer your request for me to test it out lol. Thanks for understanding

[Gimli]

Ya  and its hard to ask the question when the answers  always the same 

 

I see both sides and am happy either way.  

 

It's good to respect the original authors decree but as time goes on....

 

Fp is still being advanced on most other fronts so that's cool , it's just too bad there's an unfortunate sacred cow

Who knows maybe Black will re-energize it at some point.

 

As it is I like R2 physics and Zed and 2.6/2.5 

It's hard to keep the balace between thinking outside the box and staying in bounds

 

Thanks for the insight in how it works BP

 

Cheers

[ringorian]

i tried your version , Its always a downer when you shot somewhere and the ball goes somewhere else you wouldnt expect .. thats the main problem i have with all fp .. i cant tell my brain to ignore the fact that the aiming is complete different for the next minutes i play fp..

[blackphoenixpt]

Ringorian, thanks for joining.

The Angle of flippers and swing is changing between tables so not all are aiming more or less good.

Try to put 120/54 and 240/54 on the table you see that aiming is BAD. Maybe it will get better.

[Gimli]

i tried your version , Its always a downer when you shot somewhere and the ball goes somewhere else you wouldnt expect .. thats the main problem i have with all fp .. i cant tell my brain to ignore the fact that the aiming is complete different for the next minutes i play fp..

It always amazes me when people say this,  I don't find that at all.  It must be about imprinting or something, what we get adapted to, dictates

our future experiance.  I guess I am aclimatized now to FP.  I tried playing one of my old treasured VP tables recently and it seemed to defy all the laws of physics and invent a few more.  

[3Trinity3]

Interesting stuff here. I am new to this forum and pretty new to the whole virtual pinball world.  I would like to state first that I prefer the "real thing" over any of these systems. I believe we all agree and feel the same way.

With that said, I have tried vp, fp, tpa, and fx2. Also various mods of vp and fp.  There are good and bad to be said of them all I suppose. I like the "feel" of playing VP Physmod 5. Feels right.

I love the depth and better 3d effect of fp. Unfortunately many of the fp tables I have tried have a "floaty" effect, for a lack of a better word, and some have the before stated aiming issues. It seems to be mostly Author related because I have tried some that are really close to having it "right" when it comes to the ball weight and flippers.

I wonder what it is in the coding that is so different that makes vp "feel" right vs. fp. Seems fp is struggling to recreate that. I am no programmer but I would start by maybe looking at what they did right with vp and go from there.

Would love to see fp get it right. The tables just look nicer.

 

It's silly to talk about fx2 because its just arcade fun and games. It's not really trying to be like the real thing. And that's good in a way. Just something different.

tpa, well, they need to get with the program and start supporting cabinets. Just saying. Although I do use Nukelauncher for both fx2 and tpa and it seems to help.

 

As far as the mods listed above for fp, I like many of the FP 2.6 (Slamt1lt) tables. The physics really seem like they are getting much closer to that right feel.

That's my 2 cents. Carry on.

[blackphoenixpt]

MY OPINION is that the "feeling" of FP "Floating" is generated by the way it was calculated.

FP uses Newton Physics library and it's an old one. With the "tools" in hand, I think the creator of FP did the "almost" best he could.

I think that some stuff could had been better thinked. The ball floating is one of them.

The Modded physics like Zed or 2.6 have less "Floating" because they change the relation between table slope and ball gravity.

The bad of that is that changing any parameter of the Core Physics will interract with all objects in a way or another.

 

VP can do stuff that FP can't in this case but it's more complicated to tweak (compared with NO TWEAKING of FP)

 

Maybe if FP were rewritten with the new Newton Dynamics Lib it could be the "One of the Best Flipper Simulator Ever" but the REAL THING will always remain the REAL THING!

It's a shame for the FP community and it's a shame for FP that his dev. has stopped but, the programmer is the only one that knows why and we must respect hi will (I don't like his will but have no power over it... so I soak up and silently just WISH)

 

Sometimes the expectation is so high from others that the faillure is unforgivable. Sometimes it's better leaving the things as they are and risk the speculation, the criticism, the uncertainty than risk the reputation or pride.

 

So... in conclusion... I want to HATE the creator (Chris) for not giving a sh*t of the calling of the FP comunity to update FP or share the code BUT... (as a former professional programmer) I can't because... maybe... if that was me... I could do the same. (I doubt if BUT maybe)

 

That was my opinion and the my "get-off-the-chest" speak.