Is digital/virtual pinball the future of pinball?

[Dazz]

Recently the video below started making its rounds on various Digital Pinball and Real Pinball groups.  It raises the question; are Virtual/Digital Pinball formats the "future" of pinball.  There has been much discussion about this topic. Several Mechanical/Real Pinball groups, such as Pinball Enthusiast group on Facebook, taken to just ban/delete any content pertaining to Digital Pinball.

Of course I fully expect this poll to be totally biased; as that's what you all are here for.  However, healty conversation about the topic is much welcome.
 

 

[Darkstar]

*facepalm….a main note here is he actually hopes that AtGames comes supported with VPX, which, tells me (as usual) he’s clueless about the topic. Nathan is known to be shall we say “lacking evidence and knowledge”. I’m holding back here people. 

 

I’ll be boring guy. I think the future is pretty much exactly as we think it will be. VPE, software for Oculus and the like, crappy cab sellers, cheap cabs from Wal Mart and Sam’s Club. There will be nothing “surprising”. Vpinball is essentially old…it’s just catching on….becoming less of a video game, and better at emulating real life situations…and people are saying “I want that” more and more. It’s an interesting topic, but I think based on evidence the future is basically what it is now….just a bit more evolution and more interest. 

 

I don’t blame pinball forums banning virtual talk. It’s a bit like the Ferrari Enthusiasts group constantly getting bombarded with questions about what the best color and set up is for a Spider 488 on the Xbox game Forza Horizon. 

 

PS the poll is kind of a trick question. 

[LynnInDenver]

5 hours ago, Darkstar said:

I don’t blame pinball forums banning virtual talk. It’s a bit like the Ferrari Enthusiasts group constantly getting bombarded with questions about what the best color and set up is for a Spider 488 on the Xbox game Forza Horizon.

 

The combination of "not quite on topic" and the inevitable calls of "virtual pinball is a waste of space best given to the real thing" from a very vocal minority of the community, who either tried it 10-15 years ago and didn't like it then and won't revisit it, or who just poo poo it without trying it because you don't have to drop a handful of real balls into a trough before the game will fire up...

[forte]

yep, just like all the modern arcades now, most  are multi-game cart in one physical machine, room space is gettin ultra expensive and the fact that you can have tons of different games running on one machine is a game changer.

 

Of course there will always be people that preffer the real thing but mantaining 30 years old machines is not for everybody and new generations dont want to spend time learning how to fix said physical tables

[topper2k]

Are they the future? I kinda think they are the present.

 

I guess it depends on how you count it, but if you based it on games played, or number of players for some version of digital pinball vs. a conventional real pinball cabinet, or number of new games released in a given year, I'd guess it isn't remotely close.

 

Steam Charts estimates as many as 2.9 million users have downloaded Pinball FX3 (https://steamdb.info/app/442120/graphs/). And Zen (as slow as their release schedule has been lately) has still released around 25 new tables since launching FX3 in 2017 (I'm just spit balling here, but Fx2 had about 78 tables FX3 has about 100 and not all FX2 tables made it to FX3). That's an average of about 5 per year and doesn't count any of the new FX stuff or their Apple Arcade pinball games. I'd be curious to know how Stern and Jersey Jack's annual revenue stacks up against a company like Zen. And I haven't even started factoring in crowd sourced platforms like VPX and FP.

 

So I'd say the present of pinball is predominantly virtual. That's not to say real pinball is going to vanish. I certainly hope not. It's declined drastically compared to its peak. But I suspect it's settled into a relatively stable niche.

[Rascal]

I voted No, because without the physical aspect of the real pinballs then it might as well just be another video game. I can't afford the real or have the space for the real, so for me it is the virtual. It has its pros for sure and it's getting more realistic as it goes. Not having to repair the table due to the beating the ball(s) cause is a plus too. Even with all that, I think the future for pinball still needs the ball and the physical, but I like how they are adding more virtual to the game too.

[lminimart]

I voted yes, it's the future. Of course, without real machines, virtual wouldn't exist. Virtual is first and foremost a tribute to and celebration of real pinball. But, here's the thing: real pinball also isn't the past, just because virtual is the future.

 

Real pinball is on a roll right now.... more manufacturers than there have been since the 80s, and some of the best games in history (see Godzilla, Iron Maiden, etc) are being released. But, it's a rich man's game. If you don't live in a big city, more than likely, you'll never play these games unless you can buy one. The inaccessibility of real pinball is weird, and is totally out of balance with it's renewed popularity, but I think that's because a *lot* of that renewed popularity is driven by virtual pinball. Zen and VPX did a lot to make that happen, and VPX is poised to take it very, very far into the future as it continues to outpace all other competitors (yes, including Zen... who are stumbling right now and probably about to become irrelevant).

 

That's the reason it's the future: the dream of owning a decent virtual pin is not unobtainable. But a basement full of real pinball machines is solely a millionaire's dream. And the idea of pinball arcades becoming commonplace also feels out of reach now.

 

I'm personally glad there's an option for those of us who love the history and variety of pinball through the years, but are simply too late to play in the real pinball game. And it bums me out the privileged who can play the real pinball game would ever look down on the virtual community. We all just love pinball, dammit, and we wanna play. Simple as that! So I'm grateful for the VP creators through the years who have made that a possibility. It's a cool community and I hope the current time frame is seen in the future as the beginning of it's best days. I'm a newbie to the scene but it sure feels that way to me!

[namine]

I do believe that Virtual Pinball CAN be the future for pinball players, since you don't have just one table i.e. Addams Family, Ghostbusters, Twilight Zone, AC/DC etc, you have ALL OF THEM including those from the 1960s and 1970s if you really wanted to.

[Lifewater989]

I don’t think it’s the future of pinball, but I guarantee there are more people playing digital than physical.  True pinball has been and always will be a physical game that exists in the physical world.  That’s what’s so great about it.  It’s like a little world under glass that you control to a degree.  It will never go away as long as there are people with money to burn on a $10k amusement machine.

 

Having said that, digital pinball has become absolutely amazing in the past 10 years and has in many ways brought pinball back.  The level of quality and realism in these games was unheard of when pinball was super popular.  It will never replace pinball, but the amount of people playing digitally is going to grow faster than those playing physical.  And I don’t know about you, but after I play digital I have a massive craving to play a physical game.

[Tikimaster]

If you look at the numbers, physical pinball is dead. Compared to the sales figures of "back  days", pinball has become a rare hobby of a few rich, old people who can afford it. I would have to drive over an hour to reach the nearest real public table. I also don't know anyone under 30 who is really interested in pinball. I also haven't seen a female person play at a table in many years. (Are there any here on the forum at all?) So I think the future of pinball will be largely on home computers. The companies that still build real, genuine pinballs will have a hard time sustaining their existence. Good thing: I believe, that with pushing vpx to the next game engine, the future of virtual pinball is very bright. Many things devs can do are dreams of the ppl who tried to invent Pinball 2000 many years ago. So virtual pinball will be better and better...

 Build Units - best selling machines:

• Addams Family (production: 20,270 units, plus an additional 1,000 “Gold Editions” later in 1992 to celebrate the sales record)
• Eight Ball (20,230, in 1977)
• Flash (19,505, in 1979)
• Playboy (18,250, in 1978)
• Firepower (17 410, in 1980)
• High Speed (17 080, in 1986)
• KISS (17 000, in 1979)
• Star Trek (16 842, in 1979)
• Mata Hari (16 260, in 1978)
• Captain Fantastic and the Dirt Brown Cowboy (16 155, in 1976)
• Twilight Zone (15 235, in 1993)
• Terminator 2: Judgement Day (15 202, in 1991)

 

 

Source: https://pinballmag.fr/en/the-best-selling-pinball-machines-of-all-time/

Pinball FX 3 only has on Steam 500.000 - 1 Mio active Users
source: https://steamspy.com/app/442120

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Retsamikit

[Korg82]

I don't know if it's the future, but new pin prices are so f**king ridiculous now that I would have to say digital pinball is inevitable for the average person.  Restoring old beaters is stupid expensive now too because pins that were 500 to 1000 USD a few years ago are now double and triple the price making it a losing proposition to restore and sell. 

[WaRcLaWz]

I think that there is a place for both of them in the foreseeable future, but I can see how real pinball will probably continue diminishing, if not going extinct at some point. The line between real pinball and virtual pinball is getting thinner every day.

 

Real pinball has become so very cost-prohibitive that it is relegated to commercial use far more than home use, except for those lucky few who have excessive money pouring from their pockets. Virtual pinball allows the more common person to enjoy the hobby and to have a limitless supply of tables to choose from. I can see that the hobby is growing with each passing day, and it will only get larger as technology gets better and cheaper.

[MauiPunter]

The future will always include real live pinball.  So, I voted no.

[ElJulo]

I voted yes. I'll explain why. I've always enjoyed pinball since i was a kid. But i had just only few occasions to play real machines. I'm in france, and places where find a cab are in extinction. Also, place and money make real cab impossible for me. So, even if imho virtual can't replace real hardware, i understand (lucky) people who votes no. But we have nowadays, with digital tables, VR, and vpx (thanks to the awesome commnunity), an opportunity to play virtual pinball in real good conditions, on multiple games. (And customs tables, g-sounds, alt backglasses etc...). So it's a yes. 

[CastilianFly]

Even though I love my virtual pin and wouldn’t have it any other way, I don’t think virtual pinball will ever completely take over. Think of all the other virtual attempts at things like poker, blackjack, sim racing, etc. They all have their place and offer a great and enjoyable alternative to the real thing, but no matter how good it is it can never replace the real deal. I think if humanity ever does away with the physical body, then obviously everything virtual will be the new norm.

[Katmandoo22]

I think they both will continue to thrive.  I have 10 physical machines and 1 virtual that I built myself.  It fits right in my lineup and when all are on most people don't realize it's virtual until they get right up on it.  I am really hoping for the day that a company develops a 3D monitor portrait mode, minimum 4k /120hz no glasses that maintains depth and perspective when playing.  When that day comes, then I think we'll be near perfection on virtual.  I have an xbox kinect for tracking and it's okay, but not true 3D.  Nintendo 3Ds did a pretty good job with 3D and VR does great, but a glasses free monitor is going to be key.  I've followed a lot of companies progress with this and there are some neat concepts being developed and produced.  My brother works in the display field industry and says many companies have tech they are working on, but cost and scaling up to a big enough size is still a challenge.

[GeorgeH]

To my thinking, virtual pinball has been has been doing pretty well over the years.  It does seem to have increased interest in the last few years especially when FX just had a single free table to now having many that have to be purchased.  They found a niche makes pinball play more like a video game.  Likewise, I have seen more establishments open where you can play real pinball which is a sizable investment for the operators because most real tables cost $5K+.  It appears both virtual and real pinball are both doing pretty well right now.

[Korg82]

It will be the only option for most people as everyone is going to be broke the way things are going in the USA. We must pay for Israel's wars, the military industrial complex, and welfare for the Epstein billionaire class! And that's only if you can afford to build a Virtual Pincab! 💀

The price of new in box pins went through the roof! But those with money will buy real pins.

Edited April 4 by Korg82

[Korg82]

On 9/30/2022 at 3:03 AM, Tikimaster said:

If you look at the numbers, physical pinball is dead. Compared to the sales figures of "back  days", pinball has become a rare hobby of a few rich, old people who can afford it. I would have to drive over an hour to reach the nearest real public table. I also don't know anyone under 30 who is really interested in pinball. I also haven't seen a female person play at a table in many years. (Are there any here on the forum at all?) So I think the future of pinball will be largely on home computers. The companies that still build real, genuine pinballs will have a hard time sustaining their existence. Good thing: I believe, that with pushing vpx to the next game engine, the future of virtual pinball is very bright. Many things devs can do are dreams of the ppl who tried to invent Pinball 2000 many years ago. So virtual pinball will be better and better...

 Build Units - best selling machines:

• Addams Family (production: 20,270 units, plus an additional 1,000 “Gold Editions” later in 1992 to celebrate the sales record)
• Eight Ball (20,230, in 1977)
• Flash (19,505, in 1979)
• Playboy (18,250, in 1978)
• Firepower (17 410, in 1980)
• High Speed (17 080, in 1986)
• KISS (17 000, in 1979)
• Star Trek (16 842, in 1979)
• Mata Hari (16 260, in 1978)
• Captain Fantastic and the Dirt Brown Cowboy (16 155, in 1976)
• Twilight Zone (15 235, in 1993)
• Terminator 2: Judgement Day (15 202, in 1991)

 

 

Source: https://pinballmag.fr/en/the-best-selling-pinball-machines-of-all-time/

Pinball FX 3 only has on Steam 500.000 - 1 Mio active Users
source: https://steamspy.com/app/442120

 

The market is home use with limited commercial venues.  It'll never be like it was as there are too many other forms of entertainment now. Hell, I'm not rich and I own 6 real pins. I restore used ones. 

[RabidUrko]

Late to the party i guess , but heres my take.

Virtual is the way to keep all the history of the tables going for the forseeable future.

 

If a choice id much rather play physical tables given the chance, its why i got into virtual,

not really for the likes of Pinball FX etc but for the recreations of ACTUAL tables that exist/existed.

 

However i dont have the funds for physical tables or the room nowadays, although in the past i owned Williams Hurricane,

Williams Klondike and Data East Star Wars.

[Shivorath]

As a fan of Multimorphic P3 (when will someone figure a way to emulate any of those?), my first thought is "Why not both?"

Though if I'm being honest, most people seem to not like or even be aware of Multimorphic, so I can't say that's the future. Here's the thing though: both virtual and real pinball have been seeing explosive growth over the last several years. It appears that real pinball will be getting more and more accessible and popular in the coming years... and that makes me worried for virtual. The more popular real pinball gets, the more likely that emulation becomes restricted or even litigated, so while I love real pinball I have to admit I think its rise will in time severely restrict the future of virtual.

[Rappelbox]

48 minutes ago, Shivorath said:

As a fan of Multimorphic P3 (when will someone figure a way to emulate any of those?), my first thought is "Why not both?"

Though if I'm being honest, most people seem to not like or even be aware of Multimorphic, so I can't say that's the future. Here's the thing though: both virtual and real pinball have been seeing explosive growth over the last several years. It appears that real pinball will be getting more and more accessible and popular in the coming years... and that makes me worried for virtual. The more popular real pinball gets, the more likely that emulation becomes restricted or even litigated, so while I love real pinball I have to admit I think its rise will in time severely restrict the future of virtual.

 

I had the pleasure to be at the german pinball expo as a vendor AND speaker with a booth and i can tell that people aren't afraid of virtual pinballs anymore and the community welcomes well-built Vpins!

We just shouldn't poke the bear, so to speak

 

Unfortunately i couldn't find a P3 multimorphic, i was VERY curious to test one as I've heard lot of good and bad about them and wanted to make my own opinion on them.

[zero35]

I believe virtual pinball represents the future of the hobby. It gives you instant access to an ever-growing library of thousands of tables, from timeless classics to rare gems that most people will never get to play in real life. Plus, it’s preservation at its best—no wear and tear, no fading backglasses, no 'sorry, this machine is out of order.' With virtual pinball, every table is always in perfect condition, ready to play at the push of a button. That’s something physical machines simply can’t offer.

[Gravy]

I'm finding it difficult to vote either way on this topic (so I didn't) because something needs to happen before I would ever consider digital pinball to truly beat traditional pinball.

That "something" is high resolution/high refresh rate 3D with headtracking, ideally autostereoscopic glasses free 3D with multi viewpoints for (spectators) but even polarised 3D with glasses would suffice.

We came so close to this becoming an easily reached reality until the screen manufacturers decided to stop producing 3D screens back in 2017. At that time they had just about perfected passive 3D screens with 4K but then decided to pull the pin.

3D Virtual Pinball is very good but we are restricted to old tech that is nearing it's use by date in terms of reliability. The availability of 3D screens secondhand is mostly limited to 1080p 60hz in the 42"-43" range which is a major downer. There are a couple of European TV makers that offered 4K passive 3D at 43" but they are rare to find and not generally available outside Europe, the panels were made by Vesel in Turkey.

Pinball is sometimes described as a world under glass. Virtual Pinball on a non 3D screen (or without anaglyph 3D) is what I would describe more as an animated poster of a world under glass. Once you experience 3D pinball (or VR) it becomes very apparent that flat screen pinball with no 3D depth is lacking.

If a major pinball company (or even one of the smaller ones) were to decide to go down the 3D virtual pinball route I think they would be able to change the market, provided the machines were capable of full colour 4K passive or autostereoscopic headtracked 3D at least with 120hz screens.

The company could then concentrate on selling a single multigame cabinet well below the cost of a single real world pinball machine and produce additional installable tables at a fraction of the development/production/distribution cost. These downloadable tables would become much more affordable for a wider range of buyers. So sales would become more of a "produce one, sell to many at low cost" instead of "produce one, sell to few at high cost".

Sure there have been plenty of virtual pinball manufacturers that have tried and failed but how many of them have ever sold machines with a true 3D screen? Some sell with the Anaglyph 3D glasses but this is only halfway there in my opinion due to the colour loss.

Virtual pinball has some big advantages over traditional pinball:

Multiple tables per machine.
Lower initial cost
Less breakdowns
Less maintenance
Faster to market for new tables
Ability to do more effects onscreen
Ability easily tweak/update game after sale

Disadvantages:
No 3D depth to screen
Screen may not match correct aspect ratio of a real life table.
Physics feeling may not be 100% true to life


So my thinking is 3D virtual pinball is perhaps the future but with the caveat that we need to get a panel manufacturer to start producing again at the required specs in order for this to occur. VR is most of the way there, but lacking the social aspect and headsets are still a bit too heavy etc.

Edited May 10 by Gravy