After months of tweaking window mode, I find that Legacy mode looks much better . Am I insane ? :)

[SireB]

Hi guys, 

 

I have been tweaking VPX 10.8 POV settings for months on my cabinet, in Window mode, in the never ending quest for the perfect and most realistic display of tables.

 

Yet, I have never been fully satisfied, and found no clear logic in the relation between PLayer Y, PLayer Z, Window TOP Z Ofs, Window Bottom Z ofs etc.

I tried many suggested settings, I tried using positive and negative values, high values, low values, values for Player Z and Player Y that "made sense" regarding my height and position when playing.

 

But I never understood the logic. I could use almost any value and I could always compensate with other parameters to finally make the table look "ok-ish".

I even tried using negative values for top z offs and bottom z ofs, and I still could get a decent table by fiddling with YZ scale and X scale afterwards.

 

In the end, the window mode settings made less and less sense to me...

 

So I decided to give the old Legacy mode a try, which  I never considered until now.

 

And surprise... this mode is so much easier to setup, so much more logical in the immediate effect of the settings...

 

And cherry on the cake, I find the visual at least as good as my well tuned tables in Window mode, and most of the time better.

 

I read everywhere that Window mode is far superior to Legacy mode in terms of 3d effect, depth, layers (btw I have no clue what layers mean in this context...)

 

But.. not for me.

Legacy mode is superior, I really can't see any improvement with window mode. 

I compared the same table with Legacy mode and Window mode side by side, I have no enhanced 3D feeling in window mode, and Legacy mode looks great.

 

So to come to the point (at last....) : Iknow people usually say "whatever looks better to you is the way to go".

But still, I wonder if I have missed something with Window mode, maybe I got it all wrong (although I have watched several tutos, and played with all setting to figure out what they did).

I have tried Direct x mode and OpenGL mode, my setup is 43" 4K, graphic card is Nvidia RTX3060.

 

Am I the only one here to prefer Legacy mode to Window mode ? I have the feeling I may be missing out on something here...

Or am I nuts ?

 

If you guys feel like sharing your experience with Legacy vs Window mode here, I will appreciate your help

 

Cheers

[Tikimaster]

Its just a matter of taste. 

[SireB]

is it ?   

 

Yet, there is quite some noise about Window mode being "the" revolution compared to Legacy.

 

is it really just a matter of taste or can anyone here demonstrate with visual evidences that Window mode is the real deal ?

 

There is such a hype around this window mode that I was expecting really bad results when trying out the Legacy mode, but in the end it is the opposite.

 

I have moved all my tables to Legacy mode, they all look good to me.

But you know, my old guitar sounded good to me too until I got intonation and a few other things fine tuned by a pro.

 

So sometimes, you might be satisfied with what you have without even knowing things could be far better

Just want to be sure I am not completely missing something here in terms of table realism.

 

I mean all these folks claiming window mode is far superior, they know legacy mode too, so I would tend to believe them, but I can't witness this myself on my setup, even though I think I tuned settings to the best of my abilities and gear.

 

Weird...

 

 

[robertms]

10 hours ago, SireB said:

But I never understood the logic. I could use almost any value and I could always compensate with other parameters to finally make the table look "ok-ish".

I even tried using negative values for top z offs and bottom z ofs, and I still could get a decent table by fiddling with YZ scale and X scale afterwards.

 

Window POV mode is superior to the legacy mode, as long as you know how to use it properly. It offers independent adjustments for top and bottom of the table in order to accommodate virtually any cabinet and user. If you'd like some help please answer the following questions:

• What size is you cabinet?
• What size screen are you using?
• Is it mounted parallel to the glass or recessed/tilted?
• How tall are you?
• Do you stand or sit playing pinball?
• Post a screenshot of your VPX video settings, and a screenshot of any table POV settings (F12) that YOU set up using the WINDOW mode.
• While you're at it, include a photo of your cabinet running the table

[Thalamus]

Agree with @robertms - once that mode was available in 10.8, I started immediately to get rid of old *.pov and implement new settings. I've setup my values according to the documentation, then tweaked them just slightly from the recommended using only measurements described. And, now I almost always have a very good starting point for making the tables look the way I want. There are a few tables that I've had to spend some time adjusting more. We're talking less than 20 I'm sure out of a collection of around 1000. Yes. I have too many tables in my cab. It is for me a museum too, so if people ask if I have this or that table. In most cases I do. I'm using PinballY. Here you can see my screenshots of the tables. https://larsson.priv.no/tables/
 

Bare in mind though. Pictures are taken with a 90 degree angle. I'm watching the PF/Monitor at an angle. The angle that VPX recommended, or very close to it !

 

I could add .. in many of the tables, you will see a weird lighting issue in top. That is because the table is made for 10.7 and 10.8 has a very different table reflection setting. I now do reduce that automatically when I load the tables. I just haven't re-recorded all the tables. It's on a todo list, far into the future.

Edited February 24 by Thalamus

[SireB]

Hi ! Thanks for the help and sorry for my late answer here, had to deal with "non Pinball stuff" for a while

 

In the meantime, I have studied Window mode a bit more and adjusted things which now look rather ok to me (although I still cannot say it is "so much more impressive than Legacy mode"...)

 

Considering my setup :

 

- Playfield angle vs the ground is 6.9 cm (duly reported in VPX video settings, along with tv playfield width and length)

- 43" TV screen is parallel to the glass, located  2cm below the glass

•   so I put 2.0 as a value in Window Bottom Z ofs

- I am 174cm tall and play standing, rather close to the cab, meaning my eyes are directly above the bottom of the playfield

• so I put  0 as Player Y value and 75 as Player Z value (should probably be 65 according to measurement but I find the results more realistic with 75)

- As for Window Top z offset value, I rely on the table geometry :

• if table is flat (like old vintage pinballs), I put value 2.0cm just like for Window Bottom z  ofs
• if table has some depth, I align top of the table sidewalls to my cabinet sides to recreate the intended inclination.

- I then play with Scale X and scale YZ to "fill the screen", while trying to maintain a correct ball shape as much as possible

 

Anything looks wrong to you in this way of setting things up ?

 

Cheers

 

 

 

Edited March 10 by SireB

[bthlonewolf]

Worst case for me is that window mode looks exactly the same as legacy- typically for flat / EM tables, there is little difference. Sometimes objects like bumpers look a bit more 3D. But the real benefit is when there is lots of depth to the table (typically modern games). Sometimes it is a bit much as you can see distortion, but pretty easy to modify. However, things like cabwalls/blades seem deeper and render more realistically (as does everything that that is a higher Z). This also fills more width. It took me awhile to come around to it but it’s s definitely better IMHO.