ray tracing 2023-2024

[Toto022000]

Hello.

 

Is there any news with VPX and ray-tracing? I'm curious to see what ray-tracing can do in VR!

 

It's been a year since the rtx 4000 went on sale, and this year has been good with vpw tables (in vr AT TOP).

 

But is there a reshade for VPX to play with ray-tracing (lights and shadows)?

 

Pinball FX is becoming very playable with ray-tracing and DLSS since October (I have 100-120fps with RT in 2K DLSS on RTX 2080, and 240fps in 2K DLSS and RT and also 4K120 RT with RTX 4090) But it's not VR!

 

I watching this video:

 

[GeorgeH]

The resolution of the video is poor but what you say is ray tracing looks more like ball trails to me.  My understanding of ray tracing is that it produces moving shadows of the ball from lights on the table.  My FP version of Avatar has ray tracing and you can play it in VR if desired. 

[GeorgeH]

Sorry I have ray tracing confused with ray casting . 

[bord]

On 10/20/2023 at 8:28 AM, Toto022000 said:

Hello.

 

Is there any news with VPX and ray-tracing? I'm curious to see what ray-tracing can do in VR!

 

It's been a year since the rtx 4000 went on sale, and this year has been good with vpw tables (in vr AT TOP).

 

But is there a reshade for VPX to play with ray-tracing (lights and shadows)?

 

Pinball FX is becoming very playable with ray-tracing and DLSS since October (I have 100-120fps with RT in 2K DLSS on RTX 2080, and 240fps in 2K DLSS and RT and also 4K120 RT with RTX 4090) But it's not VR!

 

I watching this video:

 

Yes, new authoring tools allow the ball to occlude lights from the table if using raytraced textures/light from Blender and the lightmapping toolkit. It needs to be set up properly in order to work right. Nothing for an end user to just click "ON" and get something that looks right.

[Toto022000]

what is this famous toolkit? and is it free?

[apophis]

It’s free, like everything else here. Just takes time to learn. It’s still in a fairly preliminary development state, but that hasn’t stopped us from using it

[apophis]

You can go check out the Vpin Workshop YouTube channel for more info on what blender toolkit (aka VLM) is and how to use it with VPX. There are some tutorial vid there, but it’s not by any means complete coverage yet.

[Toto022000]

I watched some videos which could be translated into the language of my country (but I think it will be difficult to install, especially since it shows examples of illumination for a given element and YouTube translates not very well, so it's difficult to understand) also there is no tutorial yet to illuminate an entire table from A to Z, otherwise I hope that VPN Vorkshop will offer its pinball machines with RT in 2024.
otherwise for an English-speaking person gifted with computers... I think I'm going to pass on this one, because I'm already having difficulty with the pinup popper tutorial (I wanted the Guardians of the Galaxy in VR.... )
Also a market study shows that more than 90% of Steam players run with GTX 1060, 1660... good graphics cards cost more and more. and the few people who have rtx 3000 will not take a 4000.

he will have to share a few tables... to make the community want to join him.
Otherwise I would like to know how long it takes to completely illuminate a table (in 1 hour or 2, a table can be in beta state or it would actually take a week of work, testing. ..)

[bord]

3 hours ago, Toto022000 said:

I watched some videos which could be translated into the language of my country (but I think it will be difficult to install, especially since it shows examples of illumination for a given element and YouTube translates not very well, so it's difficult to understand) also there is no tutorial yet to illuminate an entire table from A to Z, otherwise I hope that VPN Vorkshop will offer its pinball machines with RT in 2024.
otherwise for an English-speaking person gifted with computers... I think I'm going to pass on this one, because I'm already having difficulty with the pinup popper tutorial (I wanted the Guardians of the Galaxy in VR.... )
Also a market study shows that more than 90% of Steam players run with GTX 1060, 1660... good graphics cards cost more and more. and the few people who have rtx 3000 will not take a 4000.

he will have to share a few tables... to make the community want to join him.
Otherwise I would like to know how long it takes to completely illuminate a table (in 1 hour or 2, a table can be in beta state or it would actually take a week of work, testing. ..)

 

Dozens of hours at very least. Unfortunately it is very time intensive.

[xoller]

Most people arent gonna have the type of graphics cards that could handle real-time ray tracing, for many years. If you take dlss out of the equation.  Blender toolkit seems like the right choice and it appears to work pretty well to me.

Edited November 6, 2023 by xoller

[Toto022000]

With an RTX 4090 we can only have 100 fps stable in real 4k a (90% render, therefore without DLSS)(with an RTX 2080 we only obtain 15-20fps in 4k and RT) on pinball fx and ray tracing (also we can have 240 fps stable with ray tracing and 1080p and also 240 fps in 1440p with dlss on the same game, also I find that pinball fx is not generous with the lighting, a real pinball machine has much more range of light). lol, just ray-tracing consumes 200 to 300 watts of gpu , a little more than SSAA (vpx 4k120 ans ssaa = 340 watt of the gpu)
  The dlss can be good and there is also eye tracking technology which gives better textures on what we are looking at (psvr2 horizon)

 

In 2016 a version of pro pinball was released, and these guys dosed the lights too well, it came out from all sides... this pinball machine consumes almost nothing (I think it only sends 70 watts in 4k120)

 

https://store.steampowered.com/app/287900/Pro_Pinball_Ultra/

[Toto022000]

There should be different versions of the same pinball with ray-tracing levels, for example:
- a "light" version (like extra minimal of vr room) with only a few more effects (like pinball fx or a little more) and which would not take more than 5-10 hours of work (and at that point I could certainly try to work with VLM)
With an rtx 2080 I had 120 fps in 1080p with pinball fx and ray tracing without dlss...
So I think that a VLM tabletop version for this kind of old rtx would make a lot of players happy (it must be possible, there is no artifice, no animation with characters...in pinball fx , the guys bring the pinball toys to life...that's why they don't take out a lot of tables, they work too much on animations that aren't in a real pinball machine)
- another version with total ray-tracing for a geak...
in racing games the ray-tracing is not optimized at all (for example: f1 2023 is only 45-60 fps in real 4k, hogwart legacy and tokyo ghostwire 35-55fps pinball fx 70-80fps at 100% 4K with an rtx 4090 "the ultimate rtx that the video game press praises does not do 4k120...it was a myth the famous 4k120, actually it is 1440p 120fps" with dlss pinball fx runs without problem at 4k120....
I think I could invest (because I have a lot of free time) in a "light version of RT" I would like to see if I could mod a pinball machine like pinball fx and that would be good.

[xoller]

1 hour ago, Toto022000 said:

There should be different versions of the same pinball with ray-tracing levels, for example:
- a "light" version (like extra minimal of vr room) with only a few more effects (like pinball fx or a little more) and which would not take more than 5-10 hours of work (and at that point I could certainly try to work with VLM)
With an rtx 2080 I had 120 fps in 1080p with pinball fx and ray tracing without dlss...
So I think that a VLM tabletop version for this kind of old rtx would make a lot of players happy (it must be possible, there is no artifice, no animation with characters...in pinball fx , the guys bring the pinball toys to life...that's why they don't take out a lot of tables, they work too much on animations that aren't in a real pinball machine)
- another version with total ray-tracing for a geak...
in racing games the ray-tracing is not optimized at all (for example: f1 2023 is only 45-60 fps in real 4k, hogwart legacy and tokyo ghostwire 35-55fps pinball fx 70-80fps at 100% 4K with an rtx 4090 "the ultimate rtx that the video game press praises does not do 4k120...it was a myth the famous 4k120, actually it is 1440p 120fps" with dlss pinball fx runs without problem at 4k120....
I think I could invest (because I have a lot of free time) in a "light version of RT" I would like to see if I could mod a pinball machine like pinball fx and that would be good.

  

Well like you alluded to, i believe dlss would only be effective in desktop direct x version. As VR technologies mature and become more effective and affordable, more people will probably be using the VR GL version.

[Toto022000]

 I would much rather play vpx in VR than play pinball fx with RT.
I regret buying an rtx 4090 just for pinball fx
I could have had a real second-hand pinball machine (but I don't have the space for that)

 

[Toto022000]

the guy from the terminator 2 video coded this table more than 2 years ago, there must be a community somewhere (since time has passed) that would have playable vpx pinball machines with rt.

[petelunacy]

well at least now you can also play Pinball M, so 2 games lol the duke nukem table is pretty cool. yeah 4090 is overkill for anything lol. the only game that you could really justify a 4090 is Cyberpunk 2077 if you wanted 4k ultra with ray tracing with high fps. But look at it this way: efficiency, that 4090 doesn't have to crank at full blast like a lesser card would, it can chug vpx and never blink while keeping super cool thermals. My 3070 labtop plays pinball FX great with ray tracing & max settings in 1080p (it only has a 1080p screen) however it runs super hot and the fans are nonstop going crazy. Honestly the ray tracing in FX really doesnt impress me, it's almost no different, If it were in VR i think I would notice it more, but still and flat on screen it's barley noticeable. Ray tracing in Cyberpunk makes so much of a difference, beautiful neon lights glimmering on rain soaked pavement, it's beautiful. It's not publicly released yet (and may not be for a while) but look into Praydog's Universal Unreal VR Injector. It's a mod that will make any unreal engine game run in VR, which includes FX (there's even a demonstration video on youtube specifically showing FX) However, word is only the williams/bally tables will be properly usable since they have a dmd visibly modeled in place on the machines, whereas the other zen tables have a dmd overlaid on screen. I'm not a huge fan of those other tables, but would be cool if they figure out how to make those work too. I bought every FX table, they just had that massive november steam sale, every single DLC was 66% off so i grabbed everything i didnt already have.

[Fwiler]

On 11/6/2023 at 2:29 PM, Toto022000 said:

With an RTX 4090 we can only have 100 fps stable in real 4k a (90% render, therefore without DLSS)(with an RTX 2080 we only obtain 15-20fps in 4k and RT) on pinball fx and ray tracing (also we can have 240 fps stable with ray tracing and 1080p and also 240 fps in 1440p with dlss on the same game, also I find that pinball fx is not generous with the lighting, a real pinball machine has much more range of light). lol, just ray-tracing consumes 200 to 300 watts of gpu , a little more than SSAA (vpx 4k120 ans ssaa = 340 watt of the gpu)
  The dlss can be good and there is also eye tracking technology which gives better textures on what we are looking at (psvr2 horizon)

 

In 2016 a version of pro pinball was released, and these guys dosed the lights too well, it came out from all sides... this pinball machine consumes almost nothing (I think it only sends 70 watts in 4k120)

 

https://store.steampowered.com/app/287900/Pro_Pinball_Ultra/

 

I'm not sure what you may be running into but 100fps is low.  I'm at 144 fps on a 4080, no dlss, ray tracing.  144 is the max of my 4k monitor, but I do cap it at 120 for smoothness.  So perhaps you should looks at some different settings to find out what's wrong.  A 4090 is a good 35-40% faster than my 4080.  Try  turning off vertical sync in FX as that is broken.  Turn vsync fast on in nvidia control panel.  But honestly you can't see the benefits of ray tracing on pinball that much, so there's no reason to waste the energy on it.  That and ray tracing and lighting is so poorly implemented in FX it's embarrassing.  Turn off ray tracing and you'll get 200+fps.

 

[Gravy]

On 11/8/2023 at 11:02 AM, Toto022000 said:

the guy from the terminator 2 video coded this table more than 2 years ago, there must be a community somewhere (since time has passed) that would have playable vpx pinball machines with rt.

Development on Visual Pinball Engine (VPE) had slowed a fair bit from what I can gather but work is still continuing, there is a thread about it at 

The DirectX9 and OpenGL APIs don't support hardware raytracing as far as I know so it would likely require a new engine. That being said, I did just rediscover this bit of news from a while back regarding adding raytracing to those older APIs. Not sure how viable it would be for VPX.

Edit: Funnily enough I had forgotten I raised this discussion point over at VPF last year. https://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=50745

https://www.neowin.net/news/nvidia-rtx-remix-to-help-modders-add-ray-tracing-to-old-directx-8-and-9-games/
 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Gravy

[freezy]

VPE will obviously support raytracing, most likely GI, shadows and reflections, also in VR. If you're a developer, you should be able to get it working today, otherwise you'll have to wait until it gets more stable and more documented.

[unclewilly]

12 hours ago, Gravy said:

Development on Visual Pinball Engine (VPE) had slowed a fair bit from what I can gather but work is still continuing, there is a thread about it at 

The DirectX9 and OpenGL APIs don't support hardware raytracing as far as I know so it would likely require a new engine. That being said, I did just rediscover this bit of news from a while back regarding adding raytracing to those older APIs. Not sure how viable it would be for VPX.

Edit: Funnily enough I had forgotten I raised this discussion point over at VPF last year. https://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=50745

https://www.neowin.net/news/nvidia-rtx-remix-to-help-modders-add-ray-tracing-to-old-directx-8-and-9-games/
 

Has anyone tried using the nvidia remix on vp.  I downloaded the current version and have some free time coming up.  Maybe ill give it a shot

[Gravy]

9 hours ago, unclewilly said:

Has anyone tried using the nvidia remix on vp.  I downloaded the current version and have some free time coming up.  Maybe ill give it a shot

Not that I can remember, but we did discuss it at the beginning of the year over at https://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=50745

Edited December 10, 2023 by Gravy

[takise]

On 11/6/2023 at 5:14 PM, xoller said:

Most people arent gonna have the type of graphics cards that could handle real-time ray tracing, for many years. If you take dlss out of the equation.  Blender toolkit seems like the right choice and it appears to work pretty well to me.

 

In my opinion, you are absolutely right.

The current effects that can be achieved using the toolkit are more than satisfactory, and at the moment I consider the entire RT to be only a novelty and a purely cosmetic and marketing ploy in many games.

 

What we should value in VPX is maximum possibilities while maintaining minimum requirements.
Everyone who contributed to the development of VPX is well aware of its limitations and knows what they would like to improve in it, because every day they have to find solutions to problems that this editor does not solve in any way.
And what I like most are the effects that people manage to achieve using such an archaic and limited tool.
It will sound trivial, but in fact, many creators have proven that the only limitation is imagination.

 

For RT to make more sense, the VPX engine would require a major overhaul to use real ray tracing in real time. However, I am not sure that even the current top cards would handle it satisfactorily.

And the second thing is that I'm not sure whether the latest generation of cards takes up even 10% of current computer users.

 

Personally, I have had an RTX 4090 for over a year, based on an equally good processor and a large amount of RAM.
However, I don't play games other than pinball, but the appearance of the blender toolkit made me want to delve into it and see what I can do.

 

There is no point in telling others what you would like.
Here everyone has the opportunity to take matters into their own hands and minds and do whatever they want.
It's pure freedom of creation, sometimes even anarchy

[Toto022000]

Little news
Very very effective HDR with ray-tracing on oled tv (2023 lg g3....samsung s95c...)beautiful depth effect in 16:9
with hdr, with new tv, well it's just incredible (with pinball m or pinball fx) (vpx lacks color and depth it's very surprising, I expect better, because the quality of vpx in vr is very good!)

 

Why is there no hdr in vpx, I have had many hdr screens since 2016, almost all phones and cameras handle hdr... photoshop...
I had never had a high-QUALITY OLED TV before this year and it's a giant step if like me you had a QLED or LED gaming screen (eg Asus ROG 43" HDR450 or even 600... same Samsung screen odyssey g7 or g9...pinball fx and m was very very dark in hdr)
a lot of people make pincabs with lg c2-3 which are very good

PINBALL FX is playable in VR with ray-tracing, I've been playing pinball M with it for a month (super nice)