Tikimaster Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) How to deal with tables or stuff that - can no longer be found on the net. - whose developers can´t be reached any more. - are very beautifully designed - and many people ask for it No matter what table it is about, I would never re-upload someone else's table without permission. I don't want someone else's reputation. But it is somehow on the other hand also a pity if excellent work simply disappears in the sands of time. Are there any rules that have been agreed upon? How to deal with it? thanks 😉 Edited May 13, 2022 by Retsamikit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Dazz Posted May 13, 2022 Administrators Share Posted May 13, 2022 Very Simple.... If you didn't create it... You don't have the right to upload it. If you don't have verifiable permissions from the original author(s)... You don't have the right to uplaod it. It seems that VPF has very different rules now regarding this. Recently made up rules so people would upload creations released on other sites can be uploaded to VPF without permissions. A slap in the face of the awesome people that create the content that runs our hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tikimaster Posted May 13, 2022 Author Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) I agree. Absolute. But that means also, that every thing ever made by someone who changed their hobby, married 🤡 or died or got lost somehow is officially lost for ever. Backside of Medal. Sad, sometimes. Edited May 13, 2022 by Retsamikit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Dazz Posted May 13, 2022 Administrators Share Posted May 13, 2022 18 minutes ago, Retsamikit said: I agree. Absolute. But that means also, that every thing ever made by someone who changed their hobby, married 🤡 or died or got lost somehow is officially lost for ever. Backside of Medal. Sad, sometimes. Honestly... Depending on how long they have been gone. Odds are the creations are outdated. Our technology and building techniques have changed. Better graphics, better lighting, better physics, etc. Many of them are not worth it unless it's a full re-build using these newer ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tikimaster Posted May 13, 2022 Author Share Posted May 13, 2022 Agree. in most cases it doesnt make sense. In my case its about a table lost with vpinball. Table is four years old and runs like a charm. Dev has been gone. Even the other Devs, mentiont in table info have no idea where he has been gone. Fortunately, yes, one of the legendary fabulous "ghost tables" - The Munsters - magically reappeared. Made me happy. (sorry if my english sometimes is struggling.. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstar Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 Another honest answer is over time you will become friends with people, and some of those friends have been in the game for many years and back things up. It’s wrong to upload without permission to the general public, but if it’s a ghost that was once public…I don’t think anyone would oppose such things as private exchange. Common sense goes a long way. As to say, just because it’s not hosted it obviously still exists. Unless I’m missing something, there are very few tables in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GauGau Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 Don’t forget that some tables were withdrawn from the creators for legal reasons. Disney for example appear to have a very convincing legal department. Re-uploading tables with Disney content probably would cause issues for both the uploader as well as the platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tikimaster Posted May 13, 2022 Author Share Posted May 13, 2022 18 minutes ago, gaugau said: Re-uploading tables with Disney content probably would cause issues for both the uploader as well as the platform. Oh, thats right. Very complicated when Rights are sold and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnInDenver Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, Dazz said: Very Simple.... If you didn't create it... You don't have the right to upload it. If you don't have verifiable permissions from the original author(s)... You don't have the right to uplaod it. It seems that VPF has very different rules now regarding this. Recently made up rules so people would upload creations released on other sites can be uploaded to VPF without permissions. A slap in the face of the awesome people that create the content that runs our hobby. Yeah, it seemed to be a way to cement the way things are over there now and wash the hands of having to pay lip service to other sites... including the carve-out for originals, which I assume was really to keep JPSalas happy more than to establish a restriction, since he can still claim a rethemed "original" is still viable even if it's without permission, since he has said he refuses to look at other sites, so I would assume in a "he said she said" scenario he can claim ignorance and that his site rules stand that he doesn't have to consider anything not posted to his site. Edited May 13, 2022 by LynnInDenver Clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider TerryRed Posted May 14, 2022 Content Provider Share Posted May 14, 2022 I've made it clear that my PinEvent releases are free to mod. I have a very detailed Disclaimer in the very pretty Install Instructions I include with each table (that so many fail to bother to read that would solve all their problems, etc). In that disclaimer, I do however ask anyone who mods them to wait a long while until after I release something as I'm always updating them, and to at least try to ask me first. I also made it clear that any mod to a PinEvent release will not be considered a "PinEvent" table / pup-pack by "me". I don't want any confusion between my own releases / work, and someone elses. I've worked very hard to create the PinEvent eco-system for my own releases that has a specific standard of quality / features / support. When you get a PinEvent table you know exactly what it can do, what it supports, and you know I will back it up. It has my name on it. I take that seriously. If someone mods a PinEvent table and has no clue how DOF works or can't test those features in a cabinet, their mod could cause a solenoid to be stuck on (unknowingly) and cause it to burn out, or a shaker motor could be stuck on, etc. If they don't understand how PUP or PUP Stream works, they may cause a table to crash on startup for some users (who can't use pup stream, which is why its disabled by default as an example). This can lead to terrible experiences for some people, and will make my hard work (and reputation of quality / support) look bad. I will direct "all" support / questions to the modder of the table, and take no responsibility with it. I will only give "tech" support for my own releases (which I frankly go way above and beyond the norm in this hobby for that). That said, I'm in the military... and I can be forced to be away from home on a deployment and away from any online communication for up to 8 months at a time. So to be clear... if you try to contact me about mods to any of my releases.... wait a LONG while before assuming I'm never returning to the hobby. As a simple rule... courtesy / respect should always be the first course of action. As for Ghost tables no longer available... if there are some releases that were pulled for "legal" concerns, then sure we should try to respect that. In cases of an author that is no longer active for "years", and they don't respond to any communications / messages.... I think then it's fine to post an "updated / modded" version of their table. If the original creator has an issue with that being shared... then they can come on to any site to respond or PM the modder to let their feelings be known. If they never do that... frankly they don't care either way, so why would it matter. It would be extremely lame to see great works of art be lost simply because of inactivity. Posting an updated modded version of a long dormant table can sometimes bring someone out of hiding for the better. I tried to contact Rom about modding his tables WAY back when I first started with DOFLinx mods many years ago. Rom has not been active in the hobby for many years. He made many great tables... most of them originals not based on any real table, but using some kind of ip / theme... MOTU, Gremlins, Jaws... though he also made many recreations as well that many VPX tables benefited from. I messaged him multiple times on each of the sites he was a member of, and never got a response over almost 1 year of time. So I decided to released my "Mastered Edition" mod of his Masters of the Universe table years ago. I also posted a demo video of it on my YT channel way back. Well, 1 year later I get a response from Rom on my YT channel, saying he loved what I had done with the table, and was amazed that people still play his tables. That never would have happened had I not decided to post my mod of his table. At least "try" to ask a creator. They may have a better version of the table available for you to mod! Or they may have better assets you can use! I was able to get Brendan Bailey's original photoshop assets for his tables from over 10+ years ago, and now the PinEvent version of his tables are using 4K assets! That never would have happened if I simply didn't try to ask him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tikimaster Posted May 15, 2022 Author Share Posted May 15, 2022 (edited) When I read through everything, three groups of opinion can be identified: Group A: Never touch a table without permission. Group B: There may be circumstances in which touching and uploading is allowed. Group C : When a table is published, it is released to the world. Why not? Exciting to read that the same discussion is held quite differently in different forums. Edited May 15, 2022 by Retsamikit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalamus Posted May 15, 2022 Share Posted May 15, 2022 Same discussion - yes, but, on VPF you see Noah desperately going against what has been the unwritten law in this community for years. This changed because no-one with some kind of self respect will post there anymore?! Demanding that tables are to be uploaded over there. Blaming Dazz for having a voluntary link where you can help out with hosting costs. He friggi'n still is and won't even address/admit it. Talk about two faced person - Geeezuzz. There is a huge amount of new images and materials that has never seen the day over at vpf. Techniques and methods never seen before as well. One can argue that by looking at previous table scripts you are re-using something that has been created before ... that is ALL that is left from many of those re-creations he is talking about. To directly answer your question. The answer will always be A. When I person can't be reached anymore, Loserman pr. example. You can't of course ask for permission, but, you surely can make sure that his work is still being honored by putting his name into the release. Don't be a Bigus1, putting your name first - UNLESS ... you really have just used a small percentage (still with permission, or no response - for at least a couple of mnds.) then it will be ok to put your name first. BUT, NOT forgetting to honor whoever you took from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnInDenver Posted May 16, 2022 Share Posted May 16, 2022 Yeah, I just did some support over at the VPC Discord for the MOTU table (turns out he might have been running a 0.9 or 1.0 release and needed an upgrade), and am considering asking a few people in the community to help revitalize the table a bit (like upgrading to four player) and rerelease it, since I understand that Jason/randr isn't likely to be coming back. Regarding VPF: Most of Noah's VPF contributors now are either those who are gaslit by him already, or people who can't manage to behave here and blame this site rather than examine their own behaviors. I agree that he's desperate to keep the site looking more alive than it is. What I suspect will happen, if Visual Pinball Engine comes out and starts to supplant Visual Pinball X as the new software to use, he'll make noises about that (he already made snide comments about Freezy uprooting from over there), but will likely find that his desperate efforts to try to get the community to come back to him will no longer be nearly enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT11 Posted May 17, 2022 Share Posted May 17, 2022 On 5/13/2022 at 10:47 PM, Dazz said: Very Simple.... If you didn't create it... You don't have the right to upload it. If you don't have verifiable permissions from the original author(s)... You don't have the right to uplaod it. It seems that VPF has very different rules now regarding this. Recently made up rules so people would upload creations released on other sites can be uploaded to VPF without permissions. A slap in the face of the awesome people that create the content that runs our hobby. Dazz - You are correct. After finding a Bigus1 mod of Kings of Steel (Bally 1984) that was uploaded with the words "I converted this to VPX" I contacted him to say I already have a version of it that was converted by 32assassin in 2020/21. I believe I got it off vpindownload? I said to Bigus1 that he was full of it. I got flamed by Noah and Bigus1 ranted. I tried contacting chinzmanm93 and 32assassin to ask their OK to upload. I did not receive a reply. I saved it (by accident) in 10.7.1 Beta I tried uploading it here and VPF simultaneously. Wildman explained the reason for not allowing it and I totally understand. BUT - Guess what - VPF allowed my upload as a (TT11 mod) with full credits to originating authors..... Talk about Pot/Kettle/Black.... VPF does seem to have a lot of rules that get "bended" a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tikimaster Posted May 17, 2022 Author Share Posted May 17, 2022 (edited) The lost developer was found in my case. I am happy for now. I am very grateful to all the people I found in the table info who replied to me and helped me by participating in this discussion. You are just a great community. Edited May 17, 2022 by Retsamikit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider gtxjoe Posted May 18, 2022 Content Provider Share Posted May 18, 2022 So how do we feel about Pinball Nirvana upload of authors work for “archive purposes”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider gtxjoe Posted May 18, 2022 Content Provider Share Posted May 18, 2022 https://pinballnirvana.com/forums/resources/cirqus-voltaire-bally-1997-vpx.6011/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Dazz Posted May 18, 2022 Administrators Share Posted May 18, 2022 8 hours ago, gtxjoe said: https://pinballnirvana.com/forums/resources/cirqus-voltaire-bally-1997-vpx.6011/ That's a bunch of BS.. Knorr specifically requested that his creations be removed due to some licensing agreement that he uses specific software for. That's why you don't see his releases on VPU anymore. VPU gets shafted on stuff like this because we are for authors rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHOSTfaceKILLr74 Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 Good or bad once you release anything on the internet you no longer have control over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Content Provider TerryRed Posted June 8, 2022 Content Provider Share Posted June 8, 2022 Speaking of tables that may get lost... there may be a whole lot of them in a couple of months.... The end of an Era... PinSimDB is closing after 16 years! PinSimDB.org has been around since 2006, and has been "the" resource for FP tables over the years. GoPinball (the site's forums) was closed down a while ago due to endless spam, and you can see some of that on pinsimdb as well. The site owners simply wish to move on. They are planning on closing PinSimDB by the end of July, and may possibly create archives of all the content from the site in another form for us to possibly still have access to. That said, there is A LOT of FP tables and other tools and apps on there. Just look at the number of tables and downloads in the bottom corner. There is a lot of history there! Many of those tables are unique and very high quality experiences you won't find on VP. Many of these tables were used for VPX table conversions or for assets not found on any VP sites. It would be a shame for these works of art to be lost, especially as many of them would make for amazing VPE conversions in the future. Unlike the closure of VPinball and the FP forums many years ago (yes I said it), the site owners are giving plenty of notice to everyone to get content while they can from the site (especially for content creators), and also making efforts to preserve the data. That's how one should "leave the hobby"...with respect for the community as a whole instead of poisoning the well on their way out (yes I said that too). So please... anyone who has ever benefitted from pinsimdb over the years, take the time to give thanks to the site owner at this post, and to get more details on how the closure of the site will carry on. https://pinballnirvana.com/forums/threads/gopinball-pinsimdb-the-end-is-comming.21541/ PinSimDB site: http://www.pinsimdb.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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