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@ARMYAVIATIONthanks man!   @deathincclan  those where crazy weeks indeed.... but i dont plan to stop making tables. Its my hobby.

Without speaking for him directly - give him space. A huge and frustrating thing went down, something a lot of people were heavily invested in. I can understand anyone needing time away for a bit and

I have my own opinions on things... but simply put... you gotta do this stuff because you love it for "yourself".   There has always been those out there who are shitty people that try to se

Thank goodness. We have needed some good news with all of the drama lately.

 

Thanks Knorr for all of your hard work. It is much appreciated.

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Ah. Very happy to read this @Knorr ❤️

Sure, I could have asked in many channels, and I probably should have. But, like for @randr - I didn't contact him before several days had past. Almost for the same reason that @TerryRed mentions. If you where upset about something, then it is in my experience at least, often a good thing to let some time pass.

 

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5 hours ago, Knorr said:

@jamos

 

not yet, but in europe someone sells tables with roms. Since i´m a european citizen european laws come in place. So have to take care even when i´m not involved with the seller.

 

Wow, didn't see that coming! In the aftermath of Randr's action I thought this was about the same thing. Boy, was I wrong. SORRY about coming to that conclusion without thinking about other reasons... But it's hard to see a very nice community fall apart in just a few weeks.

 

Thanks a lot for all the very beautiful tables that you've built, I enjoy them a lot. 

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Yeah, it's understandable to provide a buffer... even if they find no fault, it can be problematic when the authorities deliver a summons. At best, it disrupts one's routine for weeks. At worst, it still results in consequences as some businesses let employees go just for the optics of it, some neighbors and friends whisper when they think you're not looking.

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22 hours ago, Knorr said:

 

back when i started i bought a book for kids to learn vbs... i believe it cost 20,- or so... still use it today when i start to over complicate stuff....

Knorr, thanks for your great contributions. Glad you’re still around. 
Would you care to share the title of the book?

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@Modin

 

It is this book, but I'm afraid there is no english translation.

The book is so basic, it's really to people who never touched any code in there life. The good is that it does similar things like vp with pinmame. Call functions from a provided dll which comes with the cd rom. But again, it only deliveres basic stuff for the first few steps.

 

https://www.amazon.de/dp/3836218283/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glc_i_XAXDBD6QBJF4BTX7SWRJ

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This is all makes a little more sense - the world was a strange place for two days when I thought Knorr had inexplicably 'quit the hobby'?  'in protest'?!  Im glad to at least know that there were other forces at work here.

 

thanks also for this solid gold tip... off to Amazon to buy a 'beginner's guide to visual basic scripting'

 

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07YQ8BVPZ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_3VV5AZS26MG4EYVRYBKS

 

-whistle-

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On 4/9/2021 at 2:56 AM, Knorr said:

@jamos

 

not yet, but in europe someone sells tables with roms. Since i´m a european citizen european laws come in place. So have to take care even when i´m not involved with the seller.

 

I can understand the risk here. Not only the (defunct) pinball factories had IP involved, but I think the large movie and music companies even have more stuff that is out there and used for pinball tables. 

 

Are you willing to reveal the seller of these cabs? I don't know any of them that make big volume sales? A shame that these companies don't look at the bigger picture and hurt the community like this. They can sell cabs with a few shareware games on it to be able to play out of the box and add instructions on how to download and install games yourself or something like that. 

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On 4/9/2021 at 3:28 AM, Knorr said:

those where crazy weeks indeed.... but i dont plan to stop making tables. Its my hobby.


I quote this because we can't get enough of good news these days!
 

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3 hours ago, Cenobyte said:

 

I can understand the risk here. Not only the (defunct) pinball factories had IP involved, but I think the large movie and music companies even have more stuff that is out there and used for pinball tables. 

 

Are you willing to reveal the seller of these cabs? I don't know any of them that make big volume sales? A shame that these companies don't look at the bigger picture and hurt the community like this. They can sell cabs with a few shareware games on it to be able to play out of the box and add instructions on how to download and install games yourself or something like that. 

 

 

First, this is more complicated then some of you think. 

 

I build every 3d model  in my tables on my own - from small things like screws or flashercaps, switches, bumpercaps ramps and so on...,  (except for a few). This takes me in a very comfortable situation that i have the copyright of those models - it doesnt matter if i rebuild a real table or not. Now thats for the part of people thinking "its free - i can do what i want". - No you cant, free to download doesnt mean free to use. So the bitter pill, if someone shares or reupload parts of my tables without my permission is not allowed. Well most of the community didnt do that anyway.

 

 

There is only one part that i can get in charge, and thats the artworks of the tables. But like most know, there is only a little chance to get sued for an artwork in a non profit hobby project. Usually it will get a take down and thats it. - this is the only risk for me.

 

So the main thing is the rom, as long people sell stuff with roms in combination with the tables i have a problem. You know, its one thing that i choose to take a risk, buts its another when 3party people do this -->> on my risk.

 

The last years showed that also the old williams tables are still cash machines. Look at the rerelease from remakes like medieval madness or attack from mars. But there are also digital releases like Cirqus Voltaire and so on... which means it doesnt matter if a table is old or not...

 

There are a few sellers, just look up on ebay. There are some over in poland, some in italy, some in france. Some do "patreon" for servers, others sell harddrive, some sell server connections on ebay or cabs with "800" tables to play. More and more people get into this hobby and it doesnt make much sense for me now to upload tables as long as i dont feel "safe" enough.

 

 

 

 

 

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Yeah, this is pretty much why I've determined that, if I get off my duff and make some tables, I'm going deeply into the "original content" pathway, even though it can be a LOT more work... because, if nothing else, it provides me much more personal protection against any sort of court proceedings regarding anything I've put out there, plus it gives me a LOT more leverage to use against Lazy Commercial Pincab Sellers if I need it, because the only argument they would have is, "but you put it out for FREE," to which I can answer, "look at the license I put on the table, now you can pony up $500 per cabinet you've sold with it on it and not include it in the future, because my putting it out for free was specifically for non-commercial uses, and you're doing this commercially."

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With the exception of the likes of Steve Paradis / Brenden Bailey / blindmankind FP tables.... what else is out there that would be considered a real "original" table not using coyprighted IP / music / art, etc?

 

RetroFlair 2 is an "original"... but boy it probably holds the record for the number of different IP's used in one table.

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A theme doesn't have to be "totally original" if you use elements from the public domain. In the US copyrights are expired for stories written prior to 1925. Do a kick-ass Tarzan table, then there shouldn't be a problem. Use images from the Johnny Weissmuller movies then I guess there is potentially a problem, technically speaking. Don't do a Disney Tarzan table. 

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7 hours ago, CarnyPriest said:

A theme doesn't have to be "totally original" if you use elements from the public domain. In the US copyrights are expired for stories written prior to 1925. Do a kick-ass Tarzan table, then there shouldn't be a problem. Use images from the Johnny Weissmuller movies then I guess there is potentially a problem, technically speaking. Don't do a Disney Tarzan table. 

 

I dunno, for me? That would mean doing a Wizard of Oz table if I reached into the public domain for a theme... as in based on the original book, with the silver slippers and everything else entailed. But still, the principle stands of doing something that I could pursue claims on and have a chance with.

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On 4/9/2021 at 2:48 AM, Knorr said:

@jamos

 

no frustation here, no hate. I asked noah, dazz and freezy to pull down my stuff for legal reasons. And i thank all of them to do so.

 

I totally respect your wishes but isn't legal action scenario against a table creator a bit far fetched? The burden of proof for the lawyers that someone selling tables connecting that to a nickname of the person who recreated the table not using stolen assets in the first place and then proving both that it was indeed this person and that it was indeed illegal to recreate the table in the first place, feels like impossible legal scenario in reality.

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4 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

 

I totally respect your wishes but isn't legal action scenario against a table creator a bit far fetched? The burden of proof for the lawyers that someone selling tables connecting that to a nickname of the person who recreated the table not using stolen assets in the first place and then proving both that it was indeed this person and that it was indeed illegal to recreate the table in the first place, feels like impossible legal scenario in reality.

 

It's really going to depend on the IP holder that decides to take action, and how far they go, and whether or not Knorr's own posts at various places happen to include information that can easily connect his real identity to his online identity. Plus, there's always the occasion where an IP holder decides they're going to try to "set an example" with a prominent community member to scare the rest into either stepping away from their IP, or just away from the community as a whole.

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@KnorrI totally respect your position. To have someone else’s nefarious activity possibly directly affect you would cause me to do the same thing. Please know I fully appreciate your tables and STTG has given me hours upon hours of joy!!! Thank you!!  I remember not so long ago we were all discussing on vpinball a certain designer who barely modded sttg and everyone was pretty upset about it because everyone loves that table and knows you are the source. You were calm and echoed what you have in this chain. You do it for the love of the hobby! People will mod all they want but you do it for the love. It calmed me. @bord who also had brought me tons of joy with his fantastic tables has been calm and level headed voice in this thread too. I guess the lesson to be learned is that do it for the love of the Hobby. Anyway thanks so much to all the amazing designers for all the joy that sits on my home rig. @Dazz thank you for the new upgraded VPU site . It is fantastic!! I hope we can all move forward someday soon. 

Edited by loganchihuahua
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