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Unauthorized Mods


AaronJames

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How does this forum/site feel about them?

myself, 85vett, and Koadic have made a mod of The Addams Family based off Melons table. 

It is completely updated to today's standards. It is a GOLD mod. 

Unfortunetly, as many of you know, he is M.I.A.

thx

Aaron

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I'm sure other people feel this way.....If you have made a valid attempt to contact Melon with no response you should be free to mod and I'll give you a real world example.......I used to design software routines for Halloween props using VSA (7 years ago). To this day I still have people asking for either the sounds, code, etc. which is posted freely on the Halloween forums. Truth is, I lost interest in the project and moved on, so I could careless what other people use the code for. If it benefits the community then I'm happy.

 

Z

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After doing some reading over at VPF my guess is Noah has to say no because of JPSalas.

Pissing him off would be a huge hit to his site so he is forced into the stance of you must have contact with the author or no upload

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After doing some reading over at VPF my guess is Noah has to say no because of JPSalas.

Pissing him off would be a huge hit to his site so he is forced into the stance of you must have contact with the author or no upload

 

Now why single out JP?   There are lots of people who make tables who object to unauthorized mods, and pissing them off should be avoided IMO, as there are not a whole lot of VP authors out there....  

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After doing some reading over at VPF my guess is Noah has to say no because of JPSalas.

Pissing him off would be a huge hit to his site so he is forced into the stance of you must have contact with the author or no upload

 

If he says no, I don`t think he is doing it just for JP ;)

 

What if an author says "No Mods" and vanishes?? Still no mods after a period of time? 

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The way that I see it.... Melon has been out of the scene for a long while.  Multiple attempts has been made to contact him to no avail.  Post it up, and if Melon comes around asking for it to be removed or whatever then so be it.  

 

The main thing is... the table needs to be a true update and not just reposting something with a couple minor changes.  I say for the table to be posted it needs to be brought up to our standards for today.

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I agree with Dazz. It sounds like an honest effort has been made, so let him speak up if there's a problem.

 

Personally, although anyone's free to borrow from my stuff, I'm not crazy about mods. But if I dropped off the earth- who cares? At that point it would all become community. Putting them up for public download gives it to the community anyway. Asking for permission is just good ettiquette, and shows respect for the author. Vpf can do whatever it likes, there are no blanket rules saying everyone has to follow his rules.

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If it is an original work an argument could be made.  When you are talking about a recreation of a copyrighted work based on other copyrighted works, the idea of "no mods" becomes silly.

 

Correct, when it comes to originals then I don't think unauthorized mods should be allowed.  Re-creations are a different story.

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While re-creating a table from scratch may be an option for some it just doesn't make sense in all cases. Why re-invent the wheel and spend a huge number of hours on something just because the author of the re-creation is M.I.A. MOD's can really breathe new life to existing tables (with new flashers, physics, GI etc.) due to newer VP features. In current situation if the author is not reached -> the best versions of these tables remain in few people's hard drive. I don't see how that benefits anybody. And like Dazz said if the author later has a problem with the release then it can be removed. And of course the main thing is that the mod release has all the original credits/authors mentioned.

 

So I really think MOD's should be allowed if persons can't be reached / don't reply in 30 days etc. At least in this case I know a lot of people have tried to reach Melon through different forums.

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The following rule was in place at the old VPForums.com and was very thorough and to the point. A lot of work went into the wording of this rule. You really can't have a democratic vote on something like this as most people will vote "gimmie gimmie more tables." I think this rule was in effect word for word as listed below for at least 6 years at VPF.com. It boils down to ask for permission before you release a mod and if the author doesn't respond in 30 days, then you can release a mod of any recreated table.  Of course anyone with a site can make their own rules as it is their site....

 

9.  MODIFICATIONS TO EXISTING TABLES
No unauthorized mods, hacks that break protection locks, hacks of VP or VPINMAME .exe files, or links to sites that allow posts and release threads about hacked tables will be allowed on vpforums.com. This includes links to discussions about unauthorized mods. The sole exception is a link to a site which also hosts official versions of the same table. This exception at least allows the users a choice as to which table to download.

An unauthorized mod is defined as any table which has been changed in any way, shape, or form, from the official released version without consent of the original author or current point of contact. Links to backdrops, and changes which do not include the vpt file itself are not considered mods as they must be installed by the individual user.

1) When releasing a table, an author should go into TABLE/TABLE INFO in Visual Pinball, and make sure to supply an email to contact. Leaving the info in script, rules etc would be good also.

2) If you wish to modify/change a table for PUBLIC release you will need to contact the table contact who is listed. This will help to ensure releases are always based on the latest version available, and help to get teamwork going for those that want to help on a project. Do not post screenshots or wips until you have received permission.

The following is a good example of what should be asked: I am interested in helping with a modification/change to your table as follows (list of items). Would it be ok to assist you in making this the next official version? Also if it doesn’t go in the direction you want the official version to go, can I have your permission to release it as an alternate mod version?

3) For recreations, you must wait 30 days for a reply. Authors are allowed if responding, to deny a mod from being released, as well as to collaborate into the next official, or allow an alternate mod version different from their official. If the wishes of the author is to deny a mod completely, you must respect their wish by not releasing it publicly. Please refrain from protesting if your mod is denied. The alternative is to start from scratch and build the table the way you want it without using the others material. Many tables have more then one authored release, not using the others material.

*NOTE* If the author does not respond in 30 days, it is silent consent that she/he has stopped work on the table and it's free to be worked on, in which case you can release a mod anyway.

4) If 30 days pass without a reply from the recreation's original author and you are going to release a mod; the following are the rules to be followed:

- It should be posted to the mods/plugins forum.
- All mods must contain a mod.txt file that shows the work is a mod based on the original, as well as any originally included text files with the table.

5) At no time are original tables allowed to be modified and released without the author's permission. There is no timetable that applies to originals.

This should greatly protect the hard work of authors who are still regularly working on a project so they can continue to release quality tables and improvements. It also will allow more opportunities to work together as a group to produce better tables, and to let others take over when a table project dies. As a community, we also recommend that any submitted mod that takes a table in a different direction that you feel is quality, should be allowed as an official alternative, however the author has the ultimate right to disallow a mod for any reason - start from scratch.

*NOTE* VPForums staff will only approve tables uploaded to our servers by the original author, the modder who's received permission to upload the new update, or a third party if authorized in advance by the author/authorized modder. This procedure is in place to ensure no unauthorized tables are posted at VPForums, and should therefore help us approve tables more efficiently.

 

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i think those rules are fair, maybe the 30 day thing is a little too short as most of us authors have real lives and cant always check in every 30 days to read pm's

 

if the author states here when uploading that there is to be no mods of this table at any time, like he or she has the option too now this needs to be respected 100%! no exemptions even if the author has been away for an extended time. that is to say it wont stop anybody freely modding a table and sharing it with friends i just dont think in that case it should ever be hosted here.

 

then we need to think, hey maybe there is a reason mellon is away and maybe he will return in a yr maybe 2. then there is a chance he may just say fuck it and not make any new tables again because everyone else has claimed his work as there own by making the decision of uploading the table to a new site.

 

 

the whole subject is a doozy and you wont keep everyone happy, but as a general rule i think bobs post nails it and its pretty much the way i understood it unofficially worked. for all that say modding is easier, to be honest i started out on modding and after i made my first table from scratch i realized how stupid of a job the mod was. its not that hard to start out from scratch and the job is actually easier in a way and for a better result in end.

 

there is plenty of people around here that can help people on what to do or where to start if they just start up a thread and ask. Authors a few and far between these days we need to start encouraging people to build, even if your work isnt up to jp standards first time out you dont have to release anything. we all have to start somewhere and its the only true way to progress this hobby.

 

Aarron you have done a few mods now, you are getting better and better with each one. make the jump and start one from scratch even if most objects and script are coppied from another table you will thank me when you do as i did with the guy who made me do the same :)

 

well thats my 2 cents, keep the change

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If it is an original work an argument could be made. When you are talking about a recreation of a copyrighted work based on other copyrighted works, the idea of "no mods" becomes silly.

 

 

I really don`t see a difference there. You always put a lot of work into the tables and the whole "ask for permission" ( the way I see it) is to protect this work. If an author says "no mods allowed" then you should respect that. Even if the author dies. Forcing something into open source isn`t the right way either.

 

If it`s not clear than bob5453´s and Player1`s sums it up pretty good.

 

Just my opinion.

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If it is an original work an argument could be made. When you are talking about a recreation of a copyrighted work based on other copyrighted works, the idea of "no mods" becomes silly.

 

 

This. It seems there's no respect to copyright(I know and we all know this is a legally gray area), but all the respect & glory given to the table author. No honor among thieves? Yes, a table author put a lot of work into it, but that's not to discount the guy/guys who put forth the effort into the real life version!

 

If they can't be contacted, it's just as assumable as a "yes". The hobby should not rest on people who aren't even involved any more. Otherwise it will fade away into obscurity. 

 

Go ahead & rip those plastics scans from a table made 5 years ago with someone who's email address bounces back. They didn't get permission from the company/artist to get that artwork, so why should you have to? That's one question I never got a clear answer to. "because they already got paid for it" does not answer it. 

 

Also, it's difficult to enforce. Anyone could mod a table without any clearance/permission/blessing  & upload it to some other site. There's bigger fish to fry than worrying about that. 

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How does this forum/site feel about them?

myself, 85vett, and Koadic have made a mod of The Addams Family based off Melons table. 

It is completely updated to today's standards. It is a GOLD mod. 

Unfortunetly, as many of you know, he is M.I.A.

thx

Aaron

I received permission from Melon back in December 2011 to do / release a GI8 MOD which at some point I still plan on completing, however, may still be a few more months.  He also stated "Feel free to change whatever you want in your mod" - I even saved the PM(s) as I did back then to archive my messages when my inbox got too full.

 

So, I have permission to release a MODed version and could potentially add some of the elements that you guys did or maybe even work with your versions as a base and redo some of what I had already intitially done.  However, I would still be doing the BMPR for physics, my own flashers, and various other lighting choices.   Also, I wouldn't be able to give a specific time frame / ETA and would have to work at my own pace and direction for a few reasons.. 

 

Let me know if you're interested, all things considered - it may make this specific TAF element regarding unauthorized MODs a moot point.

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This. It seems there's no respect to copyright(I know and we all know this is a legally gray area), but all the respect & glory given to the table author. No honor among thieves? Yes, a table author put a lot of work into it, but that's not to discount the guy/guys who put forth the effort into the real life version!

 

If they can't be contacted, it's just as assumable as a "yes". The hobby should not rest on people who aren't even involved any more. Otherwise it will fade away into obscurity. 

 

Go ahead & rip those plastics scans from a table made 5 years ago with someone who's email address bounces back. They didn't get permission from the company/artist to get that artwork, so why should you have to? That's one question I never got a clear answer to. "because they already got paid for it" does not answer it. 

 

Also, it's difficult to enforce. Anyone could mod a table without any clearance/permission/blessing  & upload it to some other site. There's bigger fish to fry than worrying about that. 

 

You are right. It is a shady thing with the copyright but I see a really big difference between recreating a table that is 11 years old and using someone's work that is only 3 years old.

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I really don`t see a difference there. You always put a lot of work into the tables and the whole "ask for permission" ( the way I see it) is to protect this work. If an author says "no mods allowed" then you should respect that. Even if the author dies. Forcing something into open source isn`t the right way either.

 

If it`s not clear than bob5453´s and Player1`s sums it up pretty good.

 

Just my opinion.

 

The difference is the table recreator is somehow trying to obtain rights to something which is not his or hers to begin with.

 

If the table is original, I still think open source is the way to go, but understand there are egos involved.

 

If the table is a recreation though, it is based on work the author "acquired" anyway.  Any claims to ownership of this are just not logical.

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You are right. It is a shady thing with the copyright but I see a really big difference between recreating a table that is 11 years old and using someone's work that is only 3 years old.

 

But none between needing to wait 30 days or needing to wait forever?

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I say if the mod makes a "significant" improvement to the table, go ahead and release it. We all strive to have the greatest looking / playing recreation as possible, and if someone comes along and makes some nice improvements, let's get it out there so we can all benefit from it.

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I was kinda wondering about this myself because I was looking to try to create a table as a learning experience and I see an old version out there.  I was basically going to end up redrawing everything from photographing the real machine I own but thought some of the script code from that older version might help get me going on how to tie everything together.  So I'm wondering would that really be considered a MOD?  I don't really want to call my table a MOD when I'm going to redraw everything from scratch.

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But none between needing to wait 30 days or needing to wait forever?

 

Ok, I try to explain my point of view with my bad english ;)

 

1. Yes, if you try to ram it down on the copyright... No public releasing of real tables recreations "should" be allowed. No one can stop you from making it for private use but sharing it with the public is always the big game changer when it comes to the evil copyright ;)

 

 

2. I never thought that the whole VP community was bunch of "I want my stuff for free" assholes. I always saw it as a community that tries to preserve the pinball spirit. At this point I don`t see any financial harm to anybody recreating a virtual copy of a real 11 years old table (which isn`t commercial available anymore other then second hand) and post it for free to the public. There a different rules on the VP sites handling the newer tables, regarding to that. If its out of respect for Stern or because someone is afraid of Sterns lawyers is another subject.

 

A little off topic: Regarding to that, Farsight can become a big enemy to the VP community... In my opinion

 

 

3. So, the authors in the VP community are using their recourses to recreate a table like Addams Family. The recourses are time and maybe money. If they don`t want somebody to work with this recourses and results (playfield scan, photos from plastic figures etc.) other then themselves it is their right to say so, even if it don`t fit the "preserve pinball" line. VPF and VPU can change their rules to "every upload here goes directly open source" but that should only be affecting future uploads. 

 

Take the Addams Family... Yes, Melon could never forbid somebody making a new version of the Addams Family table. But he should be able to deny any future work on his version of table because it is HIS version. If he didn`t clearly allowed or denied it in the past and is not reachable for that, I think after a period of time (30 days are to short) mods should be allowed, simply for "preserve the pinball spirit" (I love saying that ;)

 

 

I hope I answered your question. Just to be sure, and I can`t stress this enough. I totally understand your argument and I won`t say that you are wrong, because you aren`t ;) I simply see a little difference.

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