Vpcabs And Virtapin Myths And Truths

[tspeirs]

Just posted, well, because I can basically

 

Nice to hear some common sense.

 

Tom.

[Rascal]

Hey I'm selling a cab and I deleted all the illegal stuff off of it. The only software on it now is a legal version of windows and a program called undelete. I put a big warning on the screen, "Please don't click the undelete!". Any of youz bastards click that undelete... well I will be upset. So I think that should do it, I wiped it clean. I can't help it if I'm lousy at securely wiping a computer. Undelete was open source by the way, so its ok.

[allknowing2012]

Who exactly is going to come after you?

[Wildman]

LMFAO Rascal 

[Itchigo]

Address is at the top.

[DeeGor]

Address is at the top.

 

I'm not sure I follow.  Are people taking issue with VP being sold?

 

I thought it was the tables that people had issue with.

[Itchigo]

I'm not sure I follow.  Are people taking issue with VP being sold?

 

I thought it was the tables that people had issue with.

As I understand people are complaining about both tables and VP. But if you don't want your stuff passed around, why upload it in the first place?

[DeeGor]

I didn't know this, but the Visual Pinball license forbids the redistribution under commercial activity.

 

You can view the full license here:

 

https://sourceforge.net/p/vpinball/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/txt/license.txt

 

There are many open source licenses.  This one is rather restrictive when it comes to commercial products.

[Itchigo]

Please delete double post.

[Itchigo]

Read lower. They can say whatever they want, but can they make it stick? If they can't restrict how it's used, then they can't enforce that. (I saw what you posted earlier, so I know about that already).

 

"Mame like license", as it says on the SF page doesn't tell me anything.

[DeeGor]

The license in the end dictates whether you can or can't redistribute the software for commercial purposes.  Your second highlight mentions the ability of restricting on how they can use the software.  That doesn't have anything to do with whether they can sell it or not.

 

There are many licenses that are considered open source.  I'm fairly confident this would be an open and shut case, because the license specifically says "Redistributions may not be sold, nor may they be used in a commercial product or activity".

[Itchigo]

Then so be it, you're right. I thought I had something fairly concrete, but I'm not a lawyer by any means. My friend is, but not these kinds of cases, and he's a financial director now anyway.

 

I'll hold my breath to see if Randy Davis complains... I still say it's sour grapes as to the timing of all of this. If this has been going on all along, why is it only coming to a head now?

 

It's like I said at Rogue. It only takes 1 guy with a misguided sense of justice to go to the wrong person and convince them money is being lost. I hope everyone's cab is backed up...

[jukedock]

Here is my 'two cents'.
Okay - first of all I am one of the people who take extensively from this community - I enjoy the software, tables, backglasses that the software authors spend so much time on.  Personally I am very grateful. 
I am also a musician 'by trade' and my work can be found on torrent sites online - yes it bugs me - but that is the way of the world now.  Nobody wants to pay for anything.

Surely if anyone here can get annoyed about games being sold in cabs is the manufacturers and original designers.  After all, it is their work initially. 

 

I guess if you look at the copyright issue - it is with the ROMS and artwork. 

Knowing from working in the real pinball community - it costs a fortune to design a game from the ground up and it can take months/years to make a pinball design.

Not disrespecting anybody here,  but if Gary Stern and the present owner of 'Bally/Williams' designs and such can let the VP community carry on - then shouldn't we all enjoy it. 

Having said this before - if a price was put on downloads of tables I would pay it - as long as a playable demo could be tried out.  Pinball Arcade have had my money from software in my phone I have enjoyed.

One final point - if anyone gets a lawsuit dropped on them, then I am sure these games will continue on torrent sites.....   Plus people only sue people with money.  Mr Stern could of put some kind of legal action onto these forums years ago. 

I agree with Wildman - enjoy the community - have fun - share what you can.  I would like to think in a few years time I will be able to contribute something to the VP world.....

[B2K24]

Totally agree with Wildman

 

Table authors thinking people are dropping 7K on a cab because their work is on there when it can be download for free from the internet :lol: :rolleyes:

[freneticamnesic]

On 5/25/2016 at 9:53 PM, B2K24 said:

Totally agree with Wildman

 

Table authors thinking people are dropping 7K on a cab because their work is on there when it can be download for free from the internet

I was reminded of this thread and I checked it out again to see that this terrible comment was the last thing posted.

Have you seen the kinds of people who buy these cabinets? They're people who have no fucking clue about the forums that the tables come from. They will never have any idea who made the table, what went into making it etc. They will think VPCabs made the tables. They'll tell their friends that the machine came with all these tables. If you don't think the tables being pre-installed is a huge fucking selling point you might be dumber than the people who know it is and profit from it.

Don't be a fucking ignorant twat.

There's plenty more reasons to be upset but if you just want to look at the noise that's generated and not the reason for the noise then you shouldn't say a thing.

Companies profiting from, selling, or showcasing the work of others to sell a product will bring direct attention from the IP holders of that product. We've gotten away with it for a long time but as soon as we have their attention in such a negative way, this hobby is as good as done. They may be fine with what we're doing as long as nobody is selling this shit but the second you put a price on it, they have a problem with it. 

I didn't put any time into recreating tables only for some stupid schmuck to see it as a selling point and package it in with a bunch of other crap. Someone who's never spoken to me at all. Someone who doesn't participate in the forums or contribute back to what we do. 

[Spektre]

15 hours ago, freneticamnesic said:

I was reminded of this thread and I checked it out again to see that this terrible comment was the last thing posted.

Have you seen the kinds of people who buy these cabinets? They're people who have no fucking clue about the forums that the tables come from. They will never have any idea who made the table, what went into making it etc. They will think VPCabs made the tables. They'll tell their friends that the machine came with all these tables. If you don't think the tables being pre-installed is a huge fucking selling point you might be dumber than the people who know it is and profit from it.

Don't be a fucking ignorant twat.

There's plenty more reasons to be upset but if you just want to look at the noise that's generated and not the reason for the noise then you shouldn't say a thing.

Companies profiting from, selling, or showcasing the work of others to sell a product will bring direct attention from the IP holders of that product. We've gotten away with it for a long time but as soon as we have their attention in such a negative way, this hobby is as good as done. They may be fine with what we're doing as long as nobody is selling this shit but the second you put a price on it, they have a problem with it. 

I didn't put any time into recreating tables only for some stupid schmuck to see it as a selling point and package it in with a bunch of other crap. Someone who's never spoken to me at all. Someone who doesn't participate in the forums or contribute back to what we do. 

Fren,

I like ya, but you are going down the wrong path.

I don't care WHY you put the time in you do, nor if you feel people should see the pearly gates of these or other forums, or have a nice chat with you, before getting tables.

You are engaged in an illegal activity.  Do you have any idea what went on in the engineering and design meetings where the original decisions were made?  Have you spoken with the original artists to see if they approve of your recreations?  Hopefully, you make tables because you like to make tables.  Full stop.

If receiving some type of compensation is important to you, you should try a different creative endeavor, as there is currently very little way to receiving any for VP tables.  Perhaps market your skills to a software company making for-profit software instead of releasing freeware VP tables.

The VPCabs of the world provide a valuable service people are willing to pay for.  I wish them continued success.

[jukedock]

I dont get the issue:

Cab is sold with games on it - user can plug it in and enjoy.  Game author gets nothing.  Original copyright owner gets nothing.

Cab is sold without games on it - user can download all games for free, spend ages getting stuff working on it and backglasses/wheel art etc sorted out - and then enjoy it.  Game author gets nothing.  Original copyright owner gets nothing.

NONE of us (if we read the 'terms and conditions' on downloading eprom files) are legit!  

 

 

[32assassin]

On 9/15/2016 at 5:59 AM, Spektre said:

Fren,

I like ya, but you are going down the wrong path.

I don't care WHY you put the time in you do, nor if you feel people should see the pearly gates of these or other forums, or have a nice chat with you, before getting tables.

You are engaged in an illegal activity.  Do you have any idea what went on in the engineering and design meetings where the original decisions were made?  Have you spoken with the original artists to see if they approve of your recreations?  Hopefully, you make tables because you like to make tables.  Full stop.

If receiving some type of compensation is important to you, you should try a different creative endeavor, as there is currently very little way to receiving any for VP tables.  Perhaps market your skills to a software company making for-profit software instead of releasing freeware VP tables.

The VPCabs of the world provide a valuable service people are willing to pay for.  I wish them continued success.

 

by your logic 

VPCabs, is also doing something Illegal,  Even more since they are profiting from distributing as you put it "Illegal" content  and copyrighted material,  

 

 

On 5/25/2016 at 9:53 PM, B2K24 said:

Totally agree with Wildman

 

Table authors thinking people are dropping 7K on a cab because their work is on there when it can be download for free from the internet

table authors thinking that, is almost as stupid as someone,  thinking that someone is going to spend 7K on a cabinet to JUST play the Zen Studios library

a rational persons should not have a problem with anyone making cabinets,  the problem they have is when they include a Hard drive loaded tables.

[Spektre]

19 hours ago, 32assassin said:

 

1.  by your logic 

VPCabs, is also doing something Illegal,  Even more since they are profiting from distributing as you put it "Illegal" content  and copyrighted material,  

 

 

2.  table authors thinking that, is almost as stupid as someone,  thinking that someone is going to spend 7K on a cabinet to JUST play the Zen Studios library

a rational persons should not have a problem with anyone making cabinets,  the problem they have is when they include a Hard drive loaded tables.

1.  I agree.  They are doing something illegal.  I disagree it is "more illegal".  Perhaps you'd like to argue being "a little pregnant".  Thus if someone with standing makes a claim, there might be problems.  To however claim that a table author is that party is foolish.

2.  A "rational person" should have no problem with either, unless they condemn the VP world and all its various copyright infringers (table authors).  To do otherwise, is irrational.

 

[Itchigo]

I don't want to take over anything, just wanted to chime in here and say that PM's are edited at vpf. The message I sent was not the message that the person responded to. It was selectively cut down. There was no profanity, controversial topics, and there were no links to any "forbidden" sites (lol). In fact, a link to a topic at Rogue was left intact. I know, I know, nothing new.

[MrKnister]

if a table author does not want that his table is altered in any way                      respect it
if a table author does not want to see his tables gettin sold                                  respect it
if a table author gets upset when his stuff is sold without questioning                respect it
if a table author doesnt care if his table get sold                                                      respect it
if a table author never gets into emulating the latest stern's                                  respect it
if a table author doesnt give a flying *s*ish* about the latest stern protection     respect it

to sum it down .. i guess the least what professional retailers should do is ... get in touch and ask and respect the decision.. if the guy is an active member of the forums where they load the tables from they get the answer in no time .. i bet 'cha .. then its up to the author to decide what he wants to do with his hard work.

[Spektre]

On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 9:23 AM, MrKnister said:

if a table author does not want that his table is altered in any way                      respect it
if a table author does not want to see his tables gettin sold                                  respect it
if a table author gets upset when his stuff is sold without questioning                respect it
if a table author doesnt care if his table get sold                                                      respect it
if a table author never gets into emulating the latest stern's                                  respect it
if a table author doesnt give a flying *s*ish* about the latest stern protection     respect it

to sum it down .. i guess the least what professional retailers should do is ... get in touch and ask and respect the decision.. if the guy is an active member of the forums where they load the tables from they get the answer in no time .. i bet 'cha .. then its up to the author to decide what he wants to do with his hard work.

Did these table authors ask the original machine artists and designers before they ripped off their work?

No?

Sounds like you are asking for "respect" to be received where none was given.

[MrKnister]

If you think that preserving "abandonware" or putting a whole lotta love into reproducing a "physical thing" you might never get the Chance to get your hands on in your whole life into something new and unique ... Then okay ... And all this for a handfull of people who mostly really appreciate an respect the originators for what they did ... And with this respect try to work as hard as they can to get as close to the original ... For nothing but some rare thank you's ....hmmm

Besides all this most of us own also real machines to give credit ...

[DJRobX]

On September 14, 2016 at 2:34 PM, freneticamnesic said:

Have you seen the kinds of people who buy these cabinets? 

The kinds of people?  Pinball fans?   Be careful about generalizing.   I'm one of "those" people who bought a VPCab.   

If Farsight would just deliver on the cabinet support they promised, it would be the perfect fix for this whole problem.   A nice 100% legal solution that plays most of the favorites reasonably well.     People could then buy a VPCab/Virtuapin, then point, click, and buy the tables they want.   Done and done.   Takes all of the stress of supporting the solution off of VPCabs/Virtutapin, so the motivation to disrespect this community is eliminated. 

Then the "free but yer gonna work hard for it" solution is here also, much like the Windows vs. Linux communities, for the technically savvy. 

Tom Spiers also tried to address this problem by making it easier to install VP and tables but was met with the a wall of opposition because that, too, is potentially disrespectful if you don't chase down every table, backglass, and wheel art author before you put it in some catalog. 

Quote

Companies profiting from, selling, or showcasing the work of others to sell a product will bring direct attention from the IP holders of that product. We've gotten away with it for a long time but as soon as we have their attention in such a negative way, this hobby is as good as done. They may be fine with what we're doing as long as nobody is selling this shit but the second you put a price on it, they have a problem with it. 

Yep, this.    This is also why I have a love/hate relationship with Farsight.  They're assigning commercial value to virtual recreations of pinball machines, which may also incentivize IP holders to start trying to protect their assets. 

On September 16, 2016 at 9:55 AM, jukedock said:

I dont get the issue:

Cab is sold with games on it - user can plug it in and enjoy.  Game author gets nothing.  Original copyright owner gets nothing.

Cab is sold without games on it - user can download all games for free, spend ages getting stuff working on it and backglasses/wheel art etc sorted out - and then enjoy it.  Game author gets nothing.  Original copyright owner gets nothing.

See above.   Reading between the lines, I think some want to keep this hobby a bit on the complex/obscure side, as that helps keeps it from being a threat/target to the original IP owners, or even FarSight.   

[freneticamnesic]

I know a lot of more people buy cabinets that don't participate in the forums. I'm positive more people buy and don't participate than buy and do participate. So the majority aren't aware of us. That's generalizing to get my point across but it's not much of a stretch. And it's not a knock on the people who do buy them. Some just want a plug and play solution, but that can't come at the expense of our hobby... TPA needs to get their stuff together and be THE legit solution for those kinds of buyers. FX2 is great but wouldn't you rather play Monster Bash? So would Joe Noob, proud new owner of a VirtualCab© buy he's got to rely on the illegally preinstalled VP games and roms. It's going to hurt us.