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lucky1

Commercial Use Of Pin2Dmd

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THERE WILL BE NO COMMERCIAL VERSION OF PIN2DMD AND NO APPROVAL FOR COMMERCIAL SALE  OF PRODUCTS OF ANY KIND BASED ON PIN2DMD OPENSOURCE FIRMWARE

 

In the past weeks I have been contacted by several shop owners about the commercial use of PIN2DMD.

From the license side commercial use is not allowed without permission.

Commercial use also includes building cabinets for "good friends"which pay for the work or however you name it.

I started this project because of several reasons. One was wrong accusations (which really pushed me) and another

the lack of a open source alternative for real pinball DMDs. I admire the people who made all this possible by programming

a simulator for pinball hardware as much as I hate the people simply making profit of that work without giving anything

back to the community or even better only contributing things which improves their profit. For me that is totally against

the concept of open source. The reason why I started this thread is I wanted to ask you

 

1.) If you are a dealer or cab builder of any kind, please ask before, instead of selling PIN2DMD in any commercial way and hoping

     that nobody will find out  (that would really piss me off)

2.) Please make suggestions how we can serve the need of the community better, with the help of commercial dealers.

 

and last but not least

 

3.) How can the charity project of MY choice, where all donations I get for PIN2DMD go to, profit from that. 

 

Open for discussions

 

Lucky1

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Hi lucky1,

 

I'm one of those who contacted you (as well as sending you a follow up PM that you may not have seen yet) so I will weigh in here.

 

Yes, I am a commercial entity - www.ozstick.com.au

 

Yes, I'd like to sell a "Plug & Play" LED DMD unit utilising your fantastic PIN2DMD software/firmware.

 

Yes, I want to go about it the right way (ie with permission from all appropriate people).

 

Would I profit from selling such a product that requires PIN2DMD to run it? Of course - I don't run a business to lose money!! From my point of view taking the time to put it all together, test etc is providing a service to those who lack the time or ability to do it themselves. By refusing me permission to use/supply PIN2DMD we'd have VP enthusiasts who end up not running a DMD, or worse still from your perspective they will buy the only other product out there that does the same thing for a much higher price.

 

Either way they will not be spreading the word about how awesome PIN2DMD is and how inexpensive it is to set up compared to the alternative (you know what I'm referring to). 

 

As for the community, I already spend upwards of  5 hours every week on the phone to customers (actually sometimes they've not purchased anything from me, ever) offering up advice on designing and building virtual pinball cabs. You can add another 1 - 2 hours a week spent replying to emails as well as threads and PMs over at the Aussie Arcade forums. All of that I do FOR FREE and I always have, however hardly anyone realises it!

 

It's not easy running a business that relies on innovation and creativity from other people to generate interest and create demand, only to be accused of being in it for the money!

 

As far as 3) is concerned, I'd be more than happy to pay some sort of licence fee per unit which you can consider a donation to your charity. Also, not meaning to be picky but a charity does not profit from a donation, it benefits.

 

Having offered all of that, I am concerned for your project should you NOT allow some sort of commercial interest. All it takes is one person to buy up a bunch of hardware and make a batch of ready-to-run DMDs using PIN2DMD without permisison, only to start selling them on on eBay and offering no support except for links in the description pointing people to this forum! So in doing their research if they find that there is no endorsed commercial element to PIN2DMD and their only other option is DIY, they're more than likely to buy form the eBay shark instead. I imagine that's the sort of profiteering that would "really piss you off"?  ;)

 

Sorry if I'm rambling but it's been a long hot day here. I hope I haven't offended anyone by speaking my mind -  I'll come back in a couple of days to see whether I need to clarify anything.

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In my personal opinion, this IS a community driven project. Meaning that if any type of commercialization is implemented the core concept will then suffer in the road. Here people can share their knowledge, troubleshooting, ideas, concepts, and improvements.

lucky1 choose to donate the donations forward, proving even more that even him isn't interested to profit from this initial open source project.

 

I'll vote NO to commercialization. There are other alternatives for that. Please don't ruin it for others.

Thank you.

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What I actually do is a hobby... I'm not preloading anything to the stm32 dev board. Besides that, everything else can be ordered through me. I already donated, and like I told before, there will be more donations.

I'd like to do it commercially, including a royalty fee or donations, how you ever want call it ;).

Greets,

Dom

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I've installed in 3 cabs for friends charged nothing other then cost. Is this a issue? That considered commercial? If so I only have 3 friends so :)

 

Of course this is not a problem and if you have more than 3 friends (which I hope) they can order themselves and maybe donate a little :D .

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I have talked to the people currently involved in making this happen and came to

the conclusion - THERE WILL BE NO COMMERCIAL VERSION OF PIN2DMD AND NO APPROVAL FOR COMMERCIAL SALE  OF PRODUCTS OF ANY KIND BASED ON PIN2DMD OPENSOURCE FIRMWARE

Let me comment the (dis)advantages of a commercial sale of PIN2DMD from my point of view

 

 VP enthusiasts who end up not running a PIN2DMD

 

 I hope they have friends who would help them install our solution. If not they can easily find some in the community who are willing to help

 

I'd be more than happy to pay some sort of licence fee per unit which you can consider a donation to your charity.

 

That would include that I send you a invoice for the licenses that you can use in your company which I´m not willing to do.

That kind of contract relationship would also include other engagement like support and having to do something because 

somebody is complaining. I don´t like engagements in my hobby projects.

 

All it takes is one person to buy up a bunch of hardware and make a batch of ready-to-run DMDs using PIN2DMD without permisison, only to start selling them on eBay 

This  can´t be stopped by a commercial sale of PIN2DMD. I think the community will find out and spread the news. Shortly after we will find a way to stop that person either through eBay or through letting the buyers send the product back.

 

they will buy the only other product out there that does the same thing for a much higher price.

 

Ok for me . No risk no fun. BTW I already know of one guy on the preorder list of the other product who also ordered a pin2dmd interface to replace the controller of the other board. :D

 

If make a commercial version of pin2dmd we are not better than the others

We are !

 

Regards

 

Lucky1

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Lucky1,

 

This is probably a little late since you've already come to a decision, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway for a slightly different perspective.  The Gnu take on commercial use is that it can add value to open source projects, IF the licensing terms are written in such a way that commercial users can't add their own strings or steal the software for their own use.  With a GPL'ed project, commercial vendors are free to incorporate the project into products they sell, but (a) they required to ACTIVELY let their customers know that they could get the same software for free elsewhere, and (b.) they're required to contribute any improvements, bug fixes, or customizations they make back to the open source project.  

 

Part (a) is important because it means that no vendor is allowed to trick anyone into buying something they could get for free.  If a commercial vendor wants to sell their product, they have to truly add value that a customer is willing to pay for separately from the free software.  In the Gnu world, the value-add is usually professional support.  That's good for the original developers because it frees them to continue improving the software while someone else is getting paid to do the drudgery of tracking down and fixing the bugs.  For this particular project, the value-add would obviously be the hardware components and the system integration.  Uncle Sash's current project of making group buys of the PCBs and parts might make it almost impossible for anyone to make a profit on this, with such a complete version available at such low cost, but less experienced users might still be willing to pay for a fully integrated version that comes with an 800 number for support.

 

Part (b.) is especially powerful because it means that commercial use can actually improve the FREE version of the software for everyone by adding more people working on it.  When a commercial vendor answers a support call and tracks it down to a bug fix, they have to release the fix back to the community, so the free version gets better.  The commercial customers are basically paying to make the free version continuously better.

 

I'm not trying to change your mind here - just throwing in this slightly different take on it.  It's your project, your decision, and I completely sympathize with your desire not to have random commercial sellers appropriating your work and profiting from it.  I've done a number of open-source projects over the years and in the past had exactly the same attitude.  I've moved more towards the Gnu position as time has gone on, though, primarily because I've come to think that it does me no harm if someone else can find a way to commercialize a project that I wasn't going to make any money from anyway, as long as they're not unfairly benefiting from it by trying to hide its origins.  Commercializing a piece of software is its own kind of work that I'd rather not spend my own time on.

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Lucky1,

 

This is probably a little late since you've already come to a decision, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway for a slightly different perspective.  The Gnu take on commercial use is that it can add value to open source projects, IF the licensing terms are written in such a way that commercial users can't add their own strings or steal the software for their own use.  With a GPL'ed project, commercial vendors are free to incorporate the project into products they sell, but (a) they required to ACTIVELY let their customers know that they could get the same software for free elsewhere, and (b.) they're required to contribute any improvements, bug fixes, or customizations they make back to the open source project.  

 

Part (a) is important because it means that no vendor is allowed to trick anyone into buying something they could get for free.  If a commercial vendor wants to sell their product, they have to truly add value that a customer is willing to pay for separately from the free software.  In the Gnu world, the value-add is usually professional support.  That's good for the original developers because it frees them to continue improving the software while someone else is getting paid to do the drudgery of tracking down and fixing the bugs.  For this particular project, the value-add would obviously be the hardware components and the system integration.  Uncle Sash's current project of making group buys of the PCBs and parts might make it almost impossible for anyone to make a profit on this, with such a complete version available at such low cost, but less experienced users might still be willing to pay for a fully integrated version that comes with an 800 number for support.

 

Part (b.) is especially powerful because it means that commercial use can actually improve the FREE version of the software for everyone by adding more people working on it.  When a commercial vendor answers a support call and tracks it down to a bug fix, they have to release the fix back to the community, so the free version gets better.  The commercial customers are basically paying to make the free version continuously better.

 

I'm not trying to change your mind here - just throwing in this slightly different take on it.  It's your project, your decision, and I completely sympathize with your desire not to have random commercial sellers appropriating your work and profiting from it.  I've done a number of open-source projects over the years and in the past had exactly the same attitude.  I've moved more towards the Gnu position as time has gone on, though, primarily because I've come to think that it does me no harm if someone else can find a way to commercialize a project that I wasn't going to make any money from anyway, as long as they're not unfairly benefiting from it by trying to hide its origins.  Commercializing a piece of software is its own kind of work that I'd rather not spend my own time on.

 

 

Hey Mjr,

your Idea sounds really nice.

I have no clou about the GNU business, but it looks a little bit like the "arduino" project.

Maybe Lucky1 read this and we all rethink the OpenSource use and we change something in 2016 (or maybe not).

I also like to say thank you to everybody who trust, support and likes "Rappelbox" and "UncleSash" work with the GroupBuys.

We do this in our freetime after work for the community.

On my side, I search everytime for good quality parts for real low price.

I´m sure that a "real" Dealer don't spend so much attention into part sourcing.

And on the End:

I´m also AGAINST a REAL COMMERCIAL use!

Here are so many people who are doing such big things for free (VPU Forum, PinMame SAM, Pin2DMD, LedWiz Clone, etc.)!

 

best regards and merry christmas

Sascha

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Lucky1, I implore you to reconsider this.

 

You are free to license your code however you see fit.  I am not going to judge you one way or the other.  However, I would like to provide a different perspective...

 

If you don't plan to profit from your "hobby", why do you care if other people do?

 

If you license things right (ie. GPL or similar), any work anyone does to enhance your product MUST be released back for all to use.  Allowing the community of users to increase through folks selling hardware kits will increase your potential base of contributors.  And it will do so SIGNIFICANTLY, IMHO.  To me, this is the biggest reason to allow commercial use, especially when combined with the fact that you don't plan to profit from it yourself anyway.

 

I could go on for days on this topic, but I'll close with my own credentials...I was an early Linux hacker who helped start a Linux company and whose company GAVE AWAY FOR FREE every bit of code we created.  People took our software and put it on their hardware and sold it for profit and didn't give us a dime.  Some did use box sets and thus did give us money, but many didn't.  My company did pretty well.

 

That said, plenty of other hobbyists took Linux and created competing products to our commercially sold stuff that was also free, and many of those projects still exist and flourish to this day, even though THEY can also be used and sold on hardware without paying anyone a dime.  But in both cases that software ALWAYS ended up in the hands of people that helped make it even better.

 

Please, reconsider.  I'm in that group of people that most certainly COULD roll my own version of your stuff.  But I'd REALLY rather buy everything from one vendor, too.  I've got enough projects already.  I know I can do it for cheap, but I have no problem with someone making some money doing some of the lifting for me.  I don't know why you care about that, either.

 

 

--Donnie Barnes

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Hi,

From a novice perspective.

I would like to be able to buy a "pre-packaged" solution from a supplier like OzStick.

As someone that has no experience building a pincab, but who has been reading and investigating for a year now, the process seems very complex.

Being able to buy parts that are known to work together, from a knowledgeable local supplier who could help when things don't go as expected, would likely make the difference to me starting a project and getting in to the hobby.

Martin

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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...

Being able to buy parts that are known to work together, from a knowledgeable local supplier who could help when things don't go as expected, would likely make the difference to me starting a project and getting in to the hobby.

Martin

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

If you want a similar but commercial product, there is one available.  

 

PinDMD v3

http://virtuapin.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=231

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If you want a similar but commercial product, there is one available.  

 

PinDMD v3

http://virtuapin.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=231

 

Maybe we should ban gtxjoe from vpuniverse for talking about the other product here  :P  :P  :D

 

Question: There is also no official supplier for Visual Pinball and PinMame so why do you need one for pin2dmd ?

Contact OzStick or any other open minded service supplier and I´m sure he is helping you to buy the parts needed and

to get the solution you want installed in your pincab. 

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Simple fact is a lot of people (none technical / have no time to set it up / or just cant be assed) want a plug and play solution.

Some people just want.

1) buy it

2) plug it in (install usb drivers without issues)

3) use it

Not every one wants to buy various bits of hardware and build the product then download fimware and dfu tools and install firmware etc..

Thats what i have seen from experience any way (850+ plug and play pinDMD1/2/3 sold)

But the open source route is better for more technical people with plenty of time. Its all swings and round abouts there is no one perfect soloution!

And anything available on the internet (even with licence files and copyright notices) will be used by other people for purposes not entended by the oringal author.....

Regards

Russdx

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